Acupuncture

The whole acupuncture thing has been getting a lot of media coverage in Australia lately after the most recent study confirmed the placebo effect (the study Scott mentioned with the toothpicks. Personally, I like my toothpicks swirling around in a cocktail but different strokes/needle sticks for different folks). A doctor on the TV said if his patients tell him they get relief from acupuncture he tells them to keep on going, knowing full well it’s a placebo. If he thinks they can afford it he doesn’t care what makes them feel better, as long as it’s harmless. Acupuncture is probably a lot less harmful than a cocktail!

— Begin quote from “scott”

EDIT II. This is off-topic but to add to my Hubble example I wanted to show you a BIG dose of real mystery thanks to science. Just take a look at some of these sensational pictures snapped by Hubble:

http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/the_universe

And for an even bigger mystery that scientists still can’t get their heads around check out this video presentation on Dark Matter. It was discovered by Hubble and accounts for some 22% of the universe. We can’t even see it!

http://hubblesite.org/hubble_discoveries/dark_energy/

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OK, this is WAY off topic, but you speak of dark matter and link to dark energy - totally, totally different things. :slight_smile:
Dark energy makes up more like 74% of the total mass-energy in the universe. (Add then ~22% dark matter, and you end up with 4 tiny percent regular matter!)

Yeah, I overlooked the video title and thought it was dark matter for some reason.

if he thinks they can afford it he doesn’t care what makes them feel better, as long as it’s harmless.

And as long as they don’t use woo in place of a treatment where it means the difference between someone living or dying. A tragic story in the US today:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/05/modern_day_isaacs.php

This is when woo becomes dangerous.

Victoria – here’s a great discussion by the rogues at the SGU discussing acupuncture and this recent study you’ll like. The press really screwed up the reporting on it. Steve Novella talks about the placebo effect too.

Scott 8)

I am going to the quack tomorrow to get a prescription for Placebex. It fixes everything! I’ve got a sore ankle at the moment so I could really do with some topical Placebex as well. :lol:

Victoria

“And as long as they don’t use woo in place of a treatment where it means the difference between someone living or dying”

Agreed. I should have been clearer on the doc’s comments - he was talking purely from a palliative perspective and in addition to actual treatment, not in lieu of it.

Victoria

— Begin quote from “Victoria”

The whole acupuncture thing has been getting a lot of media coverage in Australia lately after the most recent study confirmed the placebo effect (the study Scott mentioned with the toothpicks. Personally, I like my toothpicks swirling around in a cocktail but different strokes/needle sticks for different folks). A doctor on the TV said if his patients tell him they get relief from acupuncture he tells them to keep on going, knowing full well it’s a placebo. If he thinks they can afford it he doesn’t care what makes them feel better, as long as it’s harmless. Acupuncture is probably a lot less harmful than a cocktail!

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Even if it is just the placebo effect there is something about acupuncture that helps people. I definitely think that people should try it for health problems, but that they shouldn’t rely on it a hundred percent.

Hey Howie,

Why else would the average age in China be like 150…

I know you were taking the mickey but thought it was worth exploring nonetheless. China, of course, has had Chinese medicine for thousands of years –– which includes acupuncture. So you’d think with all those thousands of years of knowledge that the Chinese would have been enjoying long healthy lives right? Nope.

“Life expectancy was only 36.5 years in 1949 when the People’s Republic of China was founded.”

They have have had abysmal health until only recently with the mass use and availability (medical insurance) of science-based medicine. The life expectancy there today is still behind the West but it’s getting close: “The average life expectancy of Chinese increased to 73 in 2005, 1.6 years more than in 2000.”

Scott

Gail (miniandelsa) and I started chatting about this in another thread so I thought it best to start a new one.

Basically, the evidence for acupuncture having efficacy beyond placebo is very weak, even non existent for anything other than mild pain management/relief. This is not my opinion, it’s simply what the science shows. I will make no judgement on anyone who tries acupuncture and finds relief - it’s your brain and your cash. But I’d suggest you go in with your eyes (rather than your wallet) open.

There is an excellent book called ‘Trick or Treatment’ which analyses a number of alternative treatments. Rather than rehash the entire book, check out the Wikipedia summary here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trick_or_Treatment

Vic

I appreciate you opening the discussion on this one, Vic. I’ve actually tried acupuncture 2 times in the past: once for 8 sessions for insomnia and then later for 12 sessions for widespread pain/fatigue - but neither of my experiences were helpful. I ended up feeling like a failure because acupuncture didn’t work for me…like somehow I did something wrong. Wow. And, I was creeped out by the experiences. Not that I wouldn’t do it again IF I thought it would improve something - my sleep, my migraines, anything!. One of my sister-in-laws swears that she feels better due to acupuncture… wish I could claim the same thing (I know, this coming from the woman who went to an upper cervical chiro this past month…) Guess I’m just curious about other people’s experiences, information, etc. around all this. Just more placebo??
Gail

Gail,

What an interesting outcome you had that you felt like a failure that acupuncture didn’t work. I wonder why that is? I would blame the acupuncture! Perhaps you had a ‘nocebo’ response…?

The evidence is pretty clear that acupuncture is placebo other than some possibility it might have an effect for pain (which, personally, I doubt - pain is very subjective so very susceptible to the placebo effect). I think part of the placebo effect arises from two things - 1) the patient making an active decision to ‘do something’ about their illness and 2) the generally very good ‘patient experience’ of many CAM practitioners.

So, perhaps it makes sense that if you don’t see any change in your symptoms you might feel like a ‘failure’ - on the mistaken belief that perhaps because you were too ‘skeptical’ or didn’t ‘engage’ enough with the process you didn’t get the full benefit. Perhaps it’s like fairies - you have to ‘believe’. I don’t know. Just a thought. I’d be interested to know why you think you felt like a ‘failure’.

Vic

Hey guys – you may not have scrolled to page 2 in this particular forum, but there’s another older discussion on this topic you might want to read as well:

http://mvertigo.cloudapp.net/t/acupuncture/817

Let me know if you want to merge this post with the other one or just keep this one separate.

Cheers

— Begin quote from “scott”

Hey guys – you may not have scrolled to page 2 in this particular forum, but there’s another older discussion on this topic you might want to read as well:

http://mvertigo.cloudapp.net/t/acupuncture/817

Let me know if you want to merge this post with the other one or just keep this one separate.

Cheers

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D’oh! I **thought **I sounded familiar :lol: .

Yes please merge Scott - thanks!

Merge commencing. Stand back from your screen otherwise you’ll be hit with stray flying acupuncture needles and be instantly cured. :lol:

Zap!

— Begin quote from “Victoria”

Maybe acupuncture is relaxing because you’re lying flat on a bed for an hour. You can do that at home for free!

I give massage the big thumbs up - they’ve usually got some pleasantly fragrant oils or candles burning, soft lighting, hauntingly beautiful music (or whale clicks or Gregorian chants) in the background and it feels great. Throw in a bottle of wine and it sounds like a romantic date really… :slight_smile:

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Gawd, that made me laugh again. Whale clicks and Gregorian chanting lying flat on my back at home for free. :lol:

— Begin quote from “scott”

Merge commencing. Stand back from your screen otherwise you’ll be hit with stray flying acupuncture needles and be instantly cured. :lol:

Zap!

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Arrrrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhh! My eye!!!

— Begin quote from “Victoria”

— Begin quote from “scott”

Merge commencing. Stand back from your screen otherwise you’ll be hit with stray flying acupuncture needles and be instantly cured. :lol:

Zap!

— End quote

Arrrrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhh! My eye!!!

— End quote

Oh! My! God! I think I have just had Traditional Chinese Acupuncture Laser Eye Surgery because I can see perfectly now. Seriously. I have literally just thrown my glasses in the bin. I am healed brothers and sisters!

No, Yay… I was actually healed by the flailing needles. Thank you, Scott!!! LOL. I really seriously would like to hear from someone who has had some relief for a period of time. I know some people locally that go regularly for acupuncture for classic migraines… But notice that I say “they go regularly”. What is the needle doing that accomplishes a remission or keeps a migraine at bay?? What am I missing here with the meridian/energy fields, etc.???
Gail

— Begin quote from “miniandelsa”

No, Yay… I was actually healed by the flailing needles. Thank you, Scott!!! LOL. I really seriously would like to hear from someone who has had some relief for a period of time. I know some people locally that go regularly for acupuncture for classic migraines… But notice that I say “they go regularly”. What is the needle doing that accomplishes a remission or keeps a migraine at bay?? What am I missing here with the meridian/energy fields, etc.???
Gail

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Hi Gail,

Here’s what Wikipedia says about meridians:

The meridian (simplified Chinese: 经络; traditional Chinese: 經絡; pinyin: jīngluò) is a concept central to traditional Chinese medical techniques such as acupuncture, and to martial arts such as tai chi and qigong. According to these practices, there are channels along which the energy or qi of the psychophysical system is considered to flow. Such techniques are said to achieve their effects by manipulation and, ideally, balancing of the energy running through a network of complex bodily patterns. There is no physically verifiable anatomical or histological basis for the existence of acupuncture points or meridians.

Here’s the link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_(Chinese_medicine

Vic

I’m new to MAV (diagnosed Nov 2012) but have been dealing with chronic neck/back pain for five years. I’ve recently had dry needling (similar to acupuncture) done on my neck to help reduce the intensity of migraines and the pain levels - it works, but I only get temporary relief (approox. a week) and unfortunately my budget wont stretch to weekly sessions. I also have fortnightly sessions with an exercise physiologist and have seen significant improvement in the six months that I have been seeing her. Prior to that, i had physiotherapy and went to the gym - these only provided a temporary fix for me.

I had acupuncture throughout my childhood up to my late teens (my grandmother used to practice) and I always found it made a difference.

A friend of mine is 17 weeks pregnant and suffers from Hyperemesis, severe morning sickness, she has found weekly acupuncture has allowed her to get this condition under control and enabled her to continue working full time.

As to how it works, I don’t know, but I’m happy to accept that it does.

There’s only one way to find out if it works for you, but keep in mind that a lot of these places want people to become reliant on the pain relief they can offer.

Good luck!

I tried Accupunture for many se$$ions, and although it gave me some relaxation, the only thing it worked on was my pocketbook.
Sorry it didn’t help because I think there should be some merit to something that has been around for so long and used by so many. I think it’s worth a shot?

Kelley