Migra medic supp. update

Specific Illnesses & Conditions VM/MAV
21

Hi Kathleen,

I noted your comment about going to school to be a nutritionist. Just a heads-up that while there are some “degrees” and certification programs that train people to be “nutritionists” who rely on herbal preparations in their treatment of patients, these are not evidence-based approaches. A true dietitian or nutritionist from an accredited university is schooled in medical nutritional therapy that is science/evidence-based.

I don’t want to discourage you from following your dreams when you get well. I just wanted to caution you, however, so you don’t get suckered into spending money on a certification program that isn’t medically credible without knowing up front what you’re getting yourself into.

Kennedy

22

Hi Kennedy,

Thanks & I def am going for an education in nutrition, not just herbalism! I can learn that at the library for free.

There sure is a lot of BS on line when you Google “nutritionist” tho, isn’t there?

I will probably try for a certificate first, so I can start working, and then continue on to get the BS degree & become a Nutritionist.

Where did you go to school? Any suggestions for a working person to get started? Or well, I will be working once I get this MAV under control.

K

23

Hi Linda,

Don’t be insulted. It’s the therapy we’re questioning. It’s called being skeptical and thinking critically and not about being negative or trying to make someone feel bad. I have been on this forum for a very long time and seen these sorts of therapies come and go 101 times now. And there is always some people who say they feel better on them. And this is probably why:

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/well-it-worked-for-me/

No one is saying you are not feeling better but to make the link directly to an unsubstantiated product with various herbs “from Asia” sprinkled in is a real stretch given what we know about the evidence in migraine treatment and these sorts of websites (clearly bogus when you read the jargon used). The product has all of the associated red flags that we typically see with this type of marketing. Don’t worry, we’ve all fallen for it at one stage or another.

If you like the product, feel it’s helping you and don’t mind parting with $40 a month for things you can probably pick up on iHerb for a fraction of the cost, that’s cool but I had to shut down the bogus marketing campaign by the sellers on this forum and ban them.

Cheers S

24

Linda,

You may want to check out this link to the University of Maryland Medical Center website’s page on migraines that includes info on complimentary medicine

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/migraine-headache-000072.htm

Some of this info re supplements we already know from this forum and there’s add’l info too, along with the usual diet and allopathic meds. An interesting site all around.

I notice ginger is on the list!

Enjoy,

Kathleen.

25

Hello,

It is Lisa, the MigraMedic company representative. I have read the recent posts and I’m really shocked. Are any of you experts in herbal medicine? Do you know anything about the Ayurvedic system and its thousands of year history in treating chronic conditions in a manner far superior to Western medicine? Without a shred of evidence you call MigraMedic a scam and deem it worthless, yet here you are, on a migraine forum! I would imagine that means that whatever your doctors have been prescribing hasn’t worked very well, or you wouldn’t be here. So whatever you currently take doesn’t work, yet your anger is directed at a product you haven’t tried or even researched. If you don’t want to try the product, then don’t. But posting baseless accusations like these is horribly unfair to other sufferers who do want to try something new. People who are in pain and have failed conventional treatments need options. And MigraMedic does work wonders for many of those people. All pinkone wanted to say is that it helped her. She doesn’t work for the company, gets no discount, no kickback, or anything at all for talking about what works for her.

Lastly, comments stating that I am a spammer because I didn’t get back on this site right away are crazy. I am a customer service representative, not a migraine sufferer, so I don’t hang out in talk forums about migraines. Someone emailed me to let me know that a customer had made a positive comment about MigraMedic and I checked it out and created an account in order to respond. Since then, I haven’t been back. I don’t have time to surf the net posting comments about MigraMedic. Today is Sunday, and I’m posting on my own time. The rest of the time I am at work. When I came back today I couldn’t log in. Maybe the moderators of this board banned me, I don’t know. If that’s the case, you have all the fairness of the Salem witch trials. Ban someone from responding and then use the fact that they didn’t (couldn’t) respond as proof that they are spammers. Nuts!

26

One more note. After reading the thread again I realized that the moderator, Scott, was in fact responsible for banning me. It seems he banned the other other commenter who liked MigraMedic as well. I have written Scott a letter, but now that I sent it I feel that it is important to post it in public. Rather than worry about products like MigraMedic you might consider worrying about moderators who make opinionated statements guiding people away from good medicine and leaving them in the hands of the same doctors who have failed them time and time again. Maybe Scott is a shill for big Pharma? Anyway, here’s the letter:

Scott,

Are you familiar with Ayurvedic medicine? You seem very certain that MigraMedic is a scam, and I am puzzled as to why you feel free to make accusations like that. Our website says the herbs are found only in Asia. That’s true. If you read the ingredients list you will find chebulic myrobalan, giant dodder seed, jalap root, and a host of other plants that are not grown anywhere outside of Asia. If we are mistaken about that, please direct us to the nearest myrobalan farmer, or tell me how to order giant dodder seed on iherb.com at a fraction of the cost. Believe me, if we could get suppliers in the United States or anywhere else, we would be doing so. But these ingredients are not grown outside of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. And they aren’t available separately in bulk form for users to take at a fraction of the cost. I wonder if you have ever run a business? Do you know the costs of developing a product and importing it with free shipping from India? Could you do it for less than $40 a bottle? If you have a way, again, please let us know.

Ayurvedic medicine has been treating people for literally thousands of years and deserves a great deal of respect. The formula we use in MigraMedic is a very traditional formula and has been successfully treating migraines in India for a very, very, very long time. If your only criteria for calling something a scam is that it works, then you should make that bias clear on your site. Otherwise, I think you owe your readers an apology.

27

Lisa,

I’m at work right now and don’t have the time to deal with a lot of the nonsense you posted. First, please don’t insult the people at this forum with an argument to promote your product under the flag of Argumentum ad antiquitatem (the argument to antiquity or tradition). It’s an old an weak logical fallacy.The people here are are much more savvy than you realise. In case you don’t know what this is yourself, let me give you the heads up in case you’ve swallowed it yourself:

— Begin quote from ____

Argumentum ad antiquitatem (the argument to antiquity or tradition): This is the familiar argument that some policy, behaviour, or practice is right or acceptable because “it’s always been done that way.” This is an extremely popular fallacy in debate rounds; for example, “Every great civilization in history has provided state subsidies for art and culture!” But that fact does not justify continuing the policy.

Because an argumentum ad antiquitatem is easily refuted by simply pointing it out, in general it should be avoided. But if you must make such an argument – perhaps because you can’t come up with anything better – you can at least make it marginally more acceptable by providing some reason why tradition should usually be respected.

— End quote

Second, you might like to aquaint yourself with the rules of this forum under the “Mvertigo constitution”: Be clear that … the selling/marketing of unsubstantiated products will not be tolerated at mvertigo. Anyone found breaking this agreement will be given ONE warning. If the behaviour continues a ban will follow. If anyone here ever feels … that someone is trying to sell them something for the seller’s financial gain, the issue should be brought to mine, Adam’s, Victoria’s or Muppo’s attention immediately before you respond.

And so now that you’re back despite being banned, instead of complaining, how about answering some of the questions Victoria asked of you in September. Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to get back to my desk and continue to command my Big Pharma empire.

Scott

p.s. there’s something amusing about you, who has no idea what it’s like to live with migraine, can be standing on your soapbox banging on about the virtues of this “ancient” alternative medicine and how it’s helping so many people. Now, I wonder how you’d feel about this if you were deep in the nightmare which is migraine associated vertigo. Throwing your Indian pills at this is a little bit like trying to stop the Titanic with an ice cube you plucked out of the freezer.

28

Scott, the thing is, I’m not trying to sell anything. I’m just trying to get you to stop slandering the product for reasons that are clearly baseless and allow your own members to speak their minds about the product. Pinkone posted about her experience and got totally lambasted, and I think that’s unfair. I didn’t come on this site to advertise – I’d never even heard of it until one of our customers posted about her experience. Why are you so desperate to discredit her experience or the experience of the thousands and thousands of people who’ve used this formula throughout the ages? You haven’t even looked into it! How can you be so sure that it is bogus? Of COURSE the fact that something is traditional does not prove that it is worthwhile. But you seem to think that this formula has somehow been proven not to be effective. Where do you come to so baseless a conclusion? Your members write in about their experience, and rather than allowing them to speak, you insist they are wrong and even worse that the company is a scam. You make silly statements about how you know it’s a scam because we claim (quite correctly) that the ingredients are new to the North American market, and are only found in Asia. The fact that we brought a new product with jalap and chebulic myroblan and giant dodder seed to the market is a sign of deliberate trickery? I don’t get it. As to the synergy of the ingredients, an Ayurvedic doctor would be able to give the best explanation for how the formula works. But the explanation is neither quick nor easy to understand. Ayurveda is a fully developed natural medicine system in India, complete with its own hospital system and multi-year training to become a practitioner. So there’s no glib way explain how things work. If you really want to understand how the formula treats migraines, you’ll have to devote some study time to it, along with an understanding of Ayurveda.

By the way, the reason I am so passionate about this company I work for is because it has been effective for members of my own family who suffered from chronic migraines. So I do certainly understand the pain it causes. All I want is for you to allow people who have already benefited from it to speak their minds. Then of course, if anyone out there took it and didn’t benefit, or has anything else negative to say, they can post too, but so far all the naysayers are people who haven’t taken it.

It’s Sunday evening, and I’m done posting on the Internet. Tomorrow I go back to work, and I won’t be checking in on this site again till at least next weekend. If you want to use that as evidence of a scam, go right ahead.

29

An article worth reading titled “A Few Thoughts on Ayurvedic Mumbo-Jumbo”

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/chopra.html

And this article in The Journal of the Association of Physicians of India by an Indian author, stating that the tenets of Ayurveda are bunk.

Published in The Journal of the Association of Physicians of India, Vol 49, May 2001
Author: Bhatt, AD
Article title: Clinical research on Ayurvedic therapeutics: myths, realities and challenges.

30

Hello Lisaa,

Are you, in fact, unable to explain the synergistic qualities referred to in your prior post here? Of the ingredients in the product you sell? I for one, would like to know what they are. If you are unable to answer this question, where can one find this information? What source do you use when intelligent clients ask these questions of you?

I find it insulting that you would post to this forum, a statement alluding to the fact that it might just be to difficult for our little pea brains to understand. And then have the nerve to insult our moderator, all the while not answering the question at hand.

For your information, yes, I am familiar with herbal and Ayurvedic medicine.

I look forward to your reply.

Kathleen

31

Oh boy. Where to start?

  1. Suggestions that Linda (Pinkone) has been attacked/lambasted etc are simply not true. Please re-read this thread and you will see that nowhere has that occurred. When Linda herself raised it as a concern she was quickly reassured that there was no personal issue, simply a discussion about the therapy itself. Continuing to insist that Linda or anyone else is being attacked and the product ‘slandered’ is not true and is an emotive tactic designed to divert us from scrutiny of the therapy itself. Let’s try and stay on point and not get distracted.

  2. Questions remain unanswered regarding the alleged synergistic qualities of the therapy and why the herbs can only be grown on the sub continent (more on this below). Lisa herself made the claim that migramedic works ‘synergistically’ yet cannot explain how or why. We don’t need a glib response or a Phd in Ayurvedic medicine, simply a scientific and/or layman’s explanation. Lisa, surely someone in your company can do this? If not, it might be prudent to withdraw the claim. Lisa tells us that we couldn’t possibly understand how the preparation works without studying Ayurveda for a very long time. That is nonsense. You have made claims. Back them up with evidence. It’s that simple. And ‘it’s been around for a long time’ isn’t evidence.

  3. Indian herbs. Lisa notes that they aren’t grown outside the sub continent but can’t advise why this is the case. If there is a market for the herbs outside the sub continent there is no reason they can’t be grown outside the sub continent. Migramedic could approach some US farmers. Quite easy. And there is a compelling reason why they should - safety. There are HUGE concerns with the safety of Ayurvedic preparations. Lisa tells us that we should respect Ayurveda and that this traditional formula has been used for ‘a very long time’. Have they learnt nothing in those thousands of years?? I have used as my source Wikipedia on the basis that it is the most neutral. Here’s what Wikipedia says about Ayurvedic products:

Safety
Rasa shastra, the practice of adding metals, minerals or gems to herbs, may have toxic heavy metals such as lead, mercury and arsenic.[7] Adverse reactions to herbs due to their pharmacology are described in traditional ayurvedic texts, but ayurvedic practitioners are reluctant to admit that herbs could be toxic and that reliable information on herbal toxicity is not readily available. And there is communication gap between modern medicine practitioners and Ayurvedic practitioners[55]
According to a 1990 study on ayurvedic medicines in India, 41 percent of the products tested contained arsenic, and 64 percent contained lead and mercury.[32] A 2004 study found toxic levels of heavy metals in 20 percent of ayurvedic preparations made in South Asia and sold in the Boston area, and concluded that ayurvedic products posed serious health risks and should be tested for heavy-metal contamination.[56] A 2008 study of more than 230 products found that approximately 20 percent of remedies (and 40 percent of rasa shastra medicines) purchased over the Internet from both US and Indian suppliers contained lead, mercury or arsenic.[7][57][58] In 2012 Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in Washington states in its report that Ayurvedic drugs has links to lead poisoning on the basis of some cases presented where some pregnant woman had taken Ayurvedic drugs toxic materials were found in their blood.[59]
Ayurvedic proponents believe that the toxicity of these materials is reduced through purification processes such as samskaras or shodhanas (for metals), similar to the Chinese pao zhi, although the ayurvedic technique is more complex and may involve prayers as well as physical pharmacy techniques. However, these products have nonetheless caused severe lead poisoning and other toxic effects.[7][57]
Due to these concerns, the Government of India ruled that ayurvedic products must specify their metallic content directly on the labels of the product,[8] but, writing on the subject for Current Science, a publication of the Indian Academy of Sciences, M. S. Valiathan noted that "the absence of post-market surveillance and the paucity of test laboratory facilities [in India] make the quality control of Ayurvedic medicines exceedingly difficult at this time.[8]

32

Lisaa writes:

— Begin quote from ____

Ayurvedic medicine has been treating people for literally thousands of years and deserves a great deal of respect. The formula we use in MigraMedic is a very traditional formula and has been successfully treating migraines in India for a very, very, very long time.

— End quote

Yes, I know all about Ayurvedic medicine – it’s woo Lisa – and woo that Deepak Chopra used to bang on about for years. It does not deserve mine or anybody else’s respect as a serious treatment and is interesting only from the perspective of what people used to rely on (though it’s obviously still being used by some in India and by your company) in that part of the world before there was evidence and science to work with. It’s historical information just like we used to believe in blood letting and further back, the Four Humors from the Hippocrates era. Do you still believe in that? Get your humors checked out when you’re feeling a little bit run down? A bit of blood letting when a cold strikes? Of course not. You’d think that was absurd and if I offered it to you, you’d suggest I grab a straightjacket and find a padded room. But hey, it’s “ancient” wisdom. Why the hell aren’t we following that; afterall, it was used for thousands of years. It must work. And BTW, what did Ayurvedic medicine do for life expectancy in India? Before science-based medicine arrived, a person in India was lucky to make it past 25 years of age. A lot of good all that synergy did in the herbs you write happily about for Indians last century.

— Begin quote from ____

Our website says the herbs are found only in Asia. That’s true … and a host of other plants that are not grown anywhere outside of Asia … believe me, if we could get suppliers in the United States or anywhere else, we would be doing so. But these ingredients are not grown outside of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

— End quote

This is ridiculous. Why on earth can’t you grow these herbs in the US for heaven’s sake. Hint: buy the seeds next time you’re in New Delhi, plant them in soil. Add water. Plenty of sun. BOOM, I just saved you thousands of dollars in production costs. We had someone here years ago flogging a rice powder originating from special rice grains harvested in a sacred valley in Thailand (they called it the Siam Valley for impact). Because of this it apparently had special “healing” properties. Seriously, you guys have to come up with a better story than this.

While we’re on the subject of your website you might want to talk to the person who wrote the nonsense all over it and ask them to write something at least faintly convincing. There’s more cliches on your website than feral cats in Athens. You said the following about synergy:

— Begin quote from ____

An Ayurvedic doctor would be able to give the best explanation for how the formula works. But the explanation is neither quick nor easy to understand.

— End quote

Not good enough Lisa and a massive fail on your part. If you’re a company rep, you should know your shit and be able to explain how this stuff works and not be fobbing this off to some mysterious Ayurvedic doctor for an explanation that is “lengthy and difficult to understand”. That’s code for I don’t know and neither does the Ayurvedic doctor. Try me/ us. I have a PhD in biochemistry and did pharmacology in undergrad. I know how all metabolic pathways function inside out and how drugs and herbs (that actually do something) work. Let’s hear it.

Maybe you can do better here - I’d also like to know the following:

  1. Please explain to us what the root of the neurovascular problem is concerning migraine and how these herbs treat the problem – rather than attempting to mask symptoms. If you can do this – explain it using your knowledge of biochemisrty and physiology – there’s a Nobel prize waiting for you.

  2. Please explain what the detoxifying herbs are detoxifying exactly. We all want to know precisely what the toxins are that are making us unwell. We know you can do it … layman’s terms would be great.

  3. What is the experience of the “countless generations” of herbal physicians, blending their historic wisdom with the best modern technology? What modern technology are you blending with historic wisdom? Would that be like me packaging special needles for bloodletting in 3M plastics?

— Begin quote from ____

the thing is, I’m not trying to sell anything.

— End quote

But you are a full time rep for the company who blew in here out of nowhere to plug your ancient formula. No conflict of interest there.

— Begin quote from ____

I would imagine that means that whatever your doctors have been prescribing hasn’t worked very well, or you wouldn’t be here.

— End quote

No, my migraine management plan is working pretty well thank you – not perfect but it’s pretty good. One of the main reasons I am here is to help people get correct and accurate information about migraine management, to help them get back to leading normal and productive lives again, and to not be side tracked, have their time wasted and their money lost on junk science and woo.

Over to you to enlighten us.

33

Another question I would like answered. Per Victoria’s post;

Due to these concerns, the Government of India ruled that ayurvedic products must specify their metallic content directly on the labels of the product,

Are your products labeled in accordance with this ruling?

Thank you

Kathleen

34

Vic, Scott have I mentioned lately how much I love you guys? :smiley:

35

Lisaa,

— Begin quote from “Lisaa”

One more note. After reading the thread again I realized that the moderator, Scott, was in fact responsible for banning me. Rather than worry about products like MigraMedic you might consider worrying about moderators who make opinionated statements guiding people away from good medicine and leaving them in the hands of the same doctors who have failed them time and time again.

— End quote

Nice straw man in your argument – that by default forum members are “left in the hands of doctors who fail us time and time again” unlike your Ayurvedic doctors. Well guess what? Because of the collective wisdom in this forum, almost all of us see fantastic specialists and physicians who have ended sometimes years of misery using evidence and science-based migraine treatments. And, by the way, some of the treatments used are herbs and supplements that are included in the US evidence based guidelines. Almost all herbs are completely ineffective to combat migraine intensity and frequency or drive a wedge into derailing a chronic migraine state – however, one or two are moderately effective sometimes.

I ban spammers here daily pushing all sorts of nonsense from weight loss pills to miracle diet plans … you name it. And for you to blow in here and start plugging your Ayurvedic ancient wisdom pills from a website drowning in cliches, without first asking permission of the people on this forum, is very poor forum etiquette and will almost always result in a ban, especially when no reply is received in a timely manner to well thought out questions.

— Begin quote from “Lisaa”

Otherwise, I think you owe your readers an apology.

— End quote

It is you who owes the forum an apology.

Scott

36

“I would imagine that means that whatever your doctors have been prescribing hasn’t worked very well, or you wouldn’t be here”

The above statement is the best used statement to promote a brand to 90% of the worlds population that are not fortunate enough to gain knowledge about marketing tactics or are simply not well educated enough to understand that media is owned and backed by giants for commercial reasons only to rack monetary benefits and say what they want to say whether its the truth or false.

“It’s Sunday evening, and I’m done posting on the Internet. Tomorrow I go back to work, and I won’t be checking in on this site again till at least next weekend. If you want to use that as evidence of a scam, go right ahead.”

Most of the people on Mvertigo are all very busy people and quite successful people in their careers. However, most of us even though we have never met in reality, all still log on to Mvertigo almost every day or every other day like myself to read up on information and ask questions or assist others related to migraine because we all suffer from it. You would log on too if you were a migraine sufferer. People log on to facebook every day because it interests them. Mvertigo interests us hence we log on here everyday.

Well done Kathleen, Victoria and Scott

Lissa I suggest you focus on other forums or the 90% of the world’s population that do not come from sound educational backgrounds.

37

— Begin quote from “KathleenW”

Another question I would like answered. Per Victoria’s post;

Due to these concerns, the Government of India ruled that ayurvedic products must specify their metallic content directly on the labels of the product,

Are your products labeled in accordance with this ruling?

Thank you

Kathleen

— End quote

Kathleen,

I’ve searched the Migramedic website high and low for an answer to that question but drew a blank. Hopefully Lisa will answer it (along with our other questions).

In the blog section of the website there is mention of the company founder meeting a ‘native herbalist’ in India and then bringing the formula back to the US. No mention of any clinical trials, either in India or the USA. It would be great to know if any have been done, the methodology, the results and anywhere they’ve been published. Again, hopefully Lisa or another Migramedic company rep can help out.

Vic

38

For those who believe that all herbal medicine is “woo” there is really nothing to discuss. By definition you see any non-pharmaceutical as a scam. So I will just leave off by saying that our clinical trials are in progress and data will be available in the coming months. The ingredients almost certainly can be grown outside of India. But currently they are not. And just like a baker doesn’t grow wheat and a jewelry maker doesn’t mine silver, our company uses suppliers for our ingredients, and those suppliers are located in India. The ingredients are tested for heavy metals, including lead, as well as for bacterial contamination, and the factory that produces the product follows good manufacturing processes. Finally, I find it interesting that the negative comments all come from people who have never tried the product. I will not be returning to this site to continue the discussion, but it is my hope that the merits of the product be discussed by those who have actual knowledge of it.

39

— Begin quote from “Lisaa”

For those who believe that all herbal medicine is “woo” there is really nothing to discuss. By definition you see any non-pharmaceutical as a scam. So I will just leave off by saying that our clinical trials are in progress and data will be available in the coming months. The ingredients almost certainly can be grown outside of India. But currently they are not. And just like a baker doesn’t grow wheat and a jewelry maker doesn’t mine silver, our company uses suppliers for our ingredients, and those suppliers are located in India. The ingredients are tested for heavy metals, including lead, as well as for bacterial contamination, and the factory that produces the product follows good manufacturing processes. Finally, I find it interesting that the negative comments all come from people who have never tried the product. I will not be returning to this site to continue the discussion, but it is my hope that the merits of the product be discussed by those who have actual knowledge of it.

— End quote

My ‘oh boy’ has grown into an ‘oh man’.

Nowhere on this forum has anyone ever said that all herbal medicine is woo. Like any other medicine if there’s evidence it works, it’s just medicine. No special standards or special treatment.

Nor does anyone say anything non pharmaceutical is a scam. If you take the time to read this forum you’ll see plenty of discussion about the use of VMS, stress reduction techniques (eg CBT or meditation), physical therapies like physio, trigger management, the importance of exercise and a healthy diet and lifestyle and so on.

Alarmingly, Lisa tells us that clinical trials are ‘underway’. This begs the question as to how all the claims about the product, on its website, can possibly be made, let alone verified, in advance of those trials being done? The product contains numerous parts so all will have to be tested separately, and then together, particularly for the alleged ‘synergistic’ action. How too can claims about “no marked side effects” as per the website be made when the trials have not been done?

While it’s great that Lisa reassures us the product is tested for heavy metals I couldn’t find that assurance on the website. Perhaps it should be updated. No confirmation unfortunately that the product itself is labeled with this safety guarantee, as per Indian law.

Finally Lisa chastises those who have commented on the product, without actually trying it. Given that we are now told that the product hasn’t yet had any clinical trials then I for one am even more concerned that existing users are effectively guinea pigs who are being asked to believe untested claims about efficacy, side effects and safety. No thanks. At least if you were part of a clinical trial for this product you’d get the product for free and have your health monitored.

So it comes as no surprise that she won’t be back. :roll:

40

— Begin quote from “Lisaa”

For those who believe that all herbal medicine is “woo” there is really nothing to discuss. By definition you see any non-pharmaceutical as a scam.

— End quote

And Lisa finishes off her tour of mvertigo with another whopping big straw man. She argues against a point she has cooked up in her own mind, and demonstrates that she is incapable of understanding or comprehending the discussion at hand. If Lisa was the rep for my health product/ medicine and could not adequately answer very basic and reasonable questions about the product’s mode of action from potential clients as she demonstrated here, I would have her sacked immediately.

— Begin quote from “Lisaa”

I will not be returning to this site to continue the discussion.

— End quote

Understandable because you are not able to understand the concepts being discussed.

Thanks for carving up the remains of the Thanksgiving (in Canada) turkey Vic.