Perilymph Fistula? - really in a bad place

Always remember you are dealing with a lot, being kind to yourself and giving yourself the space to adjust is important too. The inner ear is complex and everything is related. Even now, despite successful surgery I have to keep stress in check. Stress goes straight to that ear. I also stopped drinking coffee because caffeine goes straight to that ear, likely because it is raising BP.

Thanks to my PT days and my Hypnotherapy practice, I know how inter-connected the body is, that the body and mind is constantly striving for balance and that it has a tremendous ability to work towards that if we give it some help to.

As for the name of the 3rd tear - I really don’t remember. The Prof said it whilst I was still in the “world spinning” bit post surgery. I don’t remember him calling it 3rd Window syndrome, he had a technical name for it. I had the 3D CT scan too, found it fascinating!

Botox - this wasn’t a conventional treatment. It was a kind doctor who did it for the condition where the facial nerves are very painful, and he said he’d give it go for vertigo (still undiagnosed PLFs at this stage). He basically did a pattern in the side of my head immediately above my right ear and round towards the back of the ear. He was aiming to numb the nerve that runs up the side there. This is the same nerve that Prof Saeed said he would cut as a last resort (we didn’t get to that stage as he found all 3 tears).

Remember most ENTs don’t even know about PLFs. After my sorry story, Prof Saeed was so incensed that he was taking on an intern who would go out to UK ENTs and Neurologists to raise their awareness of PLFs, and get them to understand that the sooner PLF patients are referred for surgery/specialist care at UCLH, the better the outcome.

Ear infections - The Prof told me to put vaseline soaked cotton wool in my ears whenever I wash my hair, or wear the ear protectors if swimming. This has helped massively.

Pressure in that ear is a normal side effect of a PLF, which can be mistaken for ear infection pressure. I still get pressure in that ear, normally it’s my body (which always wants balance) telling me I’m stressed or I’ve over-done it and to rest. Hypnotherapy and NLP techniques work brilliantly with this - luckily I am a hypnotherapist so hypno myself lol! Or it is my ear saying “hmmn, feeling too much pressure on the patches, can we slow down/rest for a bit please?” I’ve learned to listen to the signals.

Flight - If you have open tears, then the flight will have affected these, chewing gum or scuba breathing will be doing very little. Everything you are doing that puts pressure on the system will affect it and continue to until the leak(s) are patched, or heal over on their own if they are able to. Flying, getting on the Tube, going through tunnels at speed, bending forward from the waist to touch your toes, lifting, straining, stress, caffeine etc etc are all stressors of the system. It is meant to be a closed loop system of fluid (a bit like a house plumbing system), so if there is a leak, fluid gets where it shouldn’t which is what gives you the vertigo, the feeling of being on a rocking ship, or like you are being pushed to one side. It’s fluid being where it shouldn’t and affecting those parts of the ear/brain. Just like water flowing out of a plumbing pipe and flooding your kitchen.

Brain Fog - this is a side-effect of PLFs. However; I also think the body is so busy trying to stay upright with a PLF, that the energy it puts in to doing that is borrowed from more non essential areas of the brain, thereby concentration and brain fog results. It’s my own little working theory lol. It has subsided over the last 4 years, so there may be some credence to my theory, who knows.

I don’t know if steroids have any affect on the inner ear (James? @turnitaround have you found this in your research?).

I hope you find the right diagnosis soon and gain some relief. Please remember to also nurture your inner self, your psyche and soul. These are all affected by the upset to their normal balance, and they too require a little TLC. My sister is a Reiki Master and I found Reiki was incredible post op at healping to heal the stress damage from living with PLFs. Hynpotherapy and Neuro Linguistic Programming techniques were and continue to be invaluable on that front too. The mind/body/spirit NEED balance, so when that is off, find ways that work for you to help compensate. Hypno techniques did this for me, find yours.

Trying to live when the world is spinning is one of the toughest things to face, keep the pressure on doctors to find the cause (you deserve to be free of this), have faith in yourself that you will find ways to cope with it until they do and keep talking to James - he was my rock after 4 years of pushing for answers and kept me going until I got to Prof Saeed. I promise you, you are stronger than you know!
Take care
Tx

Eeek, careful there Tina, let’s base this on anatomy.

The inner ear is surrounded by bone and any leak into the middle ear is just going to go into the throat. If something is ‘leaking’ into the brain, that’s surely not a PLF causing that? That said, a PLF is a CSF leak and such a leak could cause changes in sensory response over time, causing variable decompensation.

So Brain fog is probably just a state of decompensation so I suspect explained by neurological fallout due to the physical changes. It’s the state of ‘confusion’.

Problems with cognition (e.g. your maths issues) would be fully explained by decompensation and lack of ‘tune’ in the brain with the brain having to work harder to do things and diverting resources away from other tasks.

Whilst I’m a skeptic of migraine, there could also be elements of migraine causing brain fog, where the migraine is an escalation of the ‘panic’ the brain gets into as a result of stuff just ‘not adding up’ from the sensors.

lol, I did read on an American website about PLFs, where the leak can mix with the fluid around the brain, cuasing headaches because one of them is saltier than the other and obviously there is increased cranial pressure??

Source please, that doesn’t make any sense to me.

I don’t have it James, it was 5 years ago when I was first diagnosed, I did ask Mr Kahlil about it as I was getting bad headaches which is something I didn’t used to have and he said yes, so I presumed it to be correct. I will re-word the piece above as I just re-read it and it doesn’t read well.

I would discount it. Doesn’t sound based in science.

If you have a leak from a window, it’s going nowhere except into your stomach, ultimately.

If anything this is going to cause a drop in CSF pressure, but no leak ‘into’ the brain.

If I ever find the piece again I will send it to you. Mr Kahlil didn’t dispute it, so I don’t know :slight_smile: the headaches have disappeared, so it made sense to me on a cause and effect basis.

Makes zero logical sense to me. That would have to be something other than a PLF?

I was on a PLF website, and Mr Kahlil didn’t say it was wrong when I told him about it, so I really don’t know? At that time, Mr Kahlil hadn’t spotted the 3rd leak either, he was just talking about the round and oval windows. I’ve removed it, I don’t want to be controversial or potentially lead someone astray lol.

1 Like

A PLF is a leak out of your brain, not into it.

A PLF probably causes migraines (in this case perhaps “headaches”) because of the lowering of CSF pressure and decompensation due to changes in inner ear response due to changing pressure on the otolith organs.

The lack of headaches is surely due to the fact that your system has stabilised and you are not sufferring from such bad decompensation and low CSF pressure?

That said, if endolymphatic hydrops were to follow PLF repair (spontaneous or by surgery), perhaps this internal pressure can cause some issues going the other way? However, apparently ‘hydrops’ is never very high pressure and is not able to damage neurons, for example, unlike in the eye when you have glaucoma, where the pressure can get dangerously high and cause neurological damage (so if you are middle aged, always test your eyes regularly!).

Endolymphatic hydrops would surely in any case cause decompensation of its own?

In any case, please share the source if you can find it sometime.

I woke up this morning to a phone call from the doctor’s office at UCI asking if I can come in this afternoon. 100% amazing miracle! I am going to spend the rest of the morning gathering my medical records and hopefully will have a clearer idea and maybe even a plan by the end of the day. :heart::sparkles:

This is a bigger issue for me than I would have ever admitted before I thought I could blame it on my ear. I’ve seen that nearly exact explanation you gave somewhere in my research but I don’t have time to look just now. There are times where I’ve wondered if was getting early onset dementia (as far back as my mid-late 30s) The explanation that the higher function of my brain just isn’t available when the leak ‘kicks up’ so to speak makes a lot of sense to me. The experience for me is that I forget what I’m saying mid word, horrible memory, I repeat myself and sometimes I get grammar backwards. It’s caused me to be very careful in interactions and double check everything with work. When I got the concussion from the car accident I stopped being able to do math, well I thought I could but it was gibberish and I messed up a bunch of calculations for a project I was working on. That has improved, but I still make mistakes and don’t trust myself to just ‘know’ and not do it on paper.

Another symptom of ‘brain fog’ for me is jamais vu - which is the opposite of deja vu. Where you know something is familiar but you feel like you’re experiencing it for the first time. I can be driving through my neighborhood and feel ‘lost’ although I know I’ve driven this way 1000s of times. It’s a very concerning feeling. I stopped driving several months ago because of disorientation while driving, I blamed narcolepsy but I now think it’s my ear.

Wish me luck. I should know much more about what is possible for me by the end of the day.

2 Likes

Good luck and let us know your progress!

Thanks! They did a ‘blood patch’ procedure right in the office. It took less than 30 minutes. I walked in the office needing assistance, and with the floors tilting beneath my feet and I walked out unassisted feeling like myself. I didn’t even realize how light sensitive I was, until I wasn’t. Doctor says that he thinks I’ll need the surgery eventually but the blood patch will tell us if we’re on the right track.

The only bummer is that I live at 1500 ft elevation vs ~ 100 ft above sea level where the doctor’s office is. My ear popped on the freeway on the way home which caused some pain and a bit of the rocking is back but I’m hoping it will settle soon. Overall I am not complaining I feel so much better it’s incredible. I feel good now, and the time without any rocking at all was practically euphoric. I feel so lucky that I got in with the last minute cancelation waitlist today.

This is such an easy and basically painless procedure. I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend it to anyone who thinks that they potentially have a perilymph fistula.

1 Like

Great progress!

Btw

A very effective mitigation & remedy for that for future is using a decongestant like ‘Sudafed’. You could even take them proactively before you fly a small plane again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoephedrine

On a long commercial flight you are encouraged to take them 30 minutes before you land.

This is excellent advice. I had taken some sudafed that afternoon but it wasn’t enough. When we arrived in Maui for the longer flight home I loaded up on afrin, gum and zytrec at the airport shop but the damage was already done at that point. It was my first time using Afrin and I have to say, I wish I had it sooner. It really clears congestion quickly and might have made a difference if I had it on the first flight.

So just sharing a quick update: I got the blood patch on Monday and today it’s failed. I don’t feel as bad as I did previously but the constant ‘rocking motion’ is back. I don’t know if this is a necessarily a good thing, but there is a little hole in my ear drum from the injection I can hear a squeaking sound and air come through when I (very gently) blow my nose. But I think that’s why my ear no longer feels full and that’s a welcome change. I am going back in for a second blood patch on Friday and this time I am booking a hotel near the doctor’s office so I can let my ear settle down and hopefully scab more before heading home which has a ~1500 ft elevation gain and caused my ear to pop on the way home Monday.

Fingers crossed the 2nd time does the job. I don’t know how many of these patches I can get, but I’m under the impression they’ll do them as needed before I have the surgery.

I talked with the AUD about my results today and no surprise, he says the tests strongly indicate a perilymph fistula on my right side. And there was no indication of anything neurological or central. An interesting tidbit is that he said if I had migraines (which I’ve thought I’ve had before) he would most likely have seen some neurological/central evidence (I think he was referring to the nystagmus) on the tests. I am going to go back to him after my surgery and see if there is any brain re-training that needs to be done.

Just curious what are the symptoms of perilymph fistula? How do they differ from mav?

I’m not a doctor, so this is just my definition from my research, discussions with experts, and personal experience so far:

  • after acute injury: unyielding vertigo-ish symptoms. I define vertigo as the illusion or sensation of movement. When I walk it feels like walking on a boat that’s rocking. Not typical vertigo.
  • Feelings of being pushed or pulled (for me it’s being pushed back and down towards my bad ear)
  • when my symptoms had somewhat healed or were only partially active over the past few years I’d experience the sensation of the floor tilting whenever I’d close my eyes or when very tired.
  • when I walk I drift toward my right side
  • I get motion sick all the time, especially in stop and go traffic
  • episodes of brain fog, confusion, disorientation (I could write a novel about this)
  • feelings of ear fullness. I have gone to my PCP for ear infections so many times
  • light sensitivity
  • noise sensitivity (loud noises or busy places make me sort of nauseas, and super uncomfortable)
  • headaches. What I thought were migraines years ago were almost always on the same side as my bad ear. Not sure if that’s a coincidence or not.
  • hearing body noises pretty loudly things like chewing, heartbeat, blinking. When it’s bad own talking made me nauseous.
  • feelings of pressure in my head in certain positions, especially bending down
  • tinnitus / ringing ears
  • I am sometimes really sensitive to vibration. Like a fan on across the house, or the fridge, even people walking across the floor. I’ve been known to ask my husband to shut the main breaker off to the house so I can sleep on occasion. My doctor thinks this is related but may also be something related, but not necessarily PLF.

Frankly the symptoms sound a lot like MAV. I don’t know if you can really tell the difference by just symptoms, the suspicion of PLF mostly has to do with history and if you can point to a suspected injury that caused it. From what I was told it does not come on slowly, for most it’s like you’re fine one minute and not the next. I think it might be a car accident from years ago that caused it for me, but honestly I can think of a dozen of other possibilities from giving birth to getting hit with a baseball. The prop plane thing got it going this time, but it’s not the cause.

Because this is pretty vague and overlaps with a ton of other disorders, a lot of doctors don’t ‘believe’ in PLFs, including my ENT who dropped me when the AUD doing the balancing testing suggested it. I think that’s so silly, especially because it’s so treatable, and the treatment is very low stakes. Anyone is even slightly suspicious that this might be part of their problems I encourage you to get it checked out because it’s treatable. Get a second opinion, and ask outright if PLF is a possibility. The first blood patch did not fix it for me, but I had a good few hours where I felt better than I had in years, and the days since have been a huge improvement. I am seeing some incredible doctors at UCI who pioneered some of the treatments and they tell me that the success rate is very high. I feel quite lucky to live only 30 minutes from their offices and to have finally figured this out.

The key takeaway is not a lot!

The main distinctions are that the ear symptoms are unilateral and there is definite history of trauma.

You could also ask what is the difference between Secondary Hydrops and MAV. And I suspect the answer to that is: none, the symptoms are the same (this is why I’ve been diagnosed with either depending on the specialist). Even the diet is similar! (You are supposed to keep away from “red wine and cheese” ie, it’s a MAV diet!)

This is why your diagnosis can depend on who you see.

Imho, the best approach is to follow the regime prescribed and be as conservative as possible and hope for spontaneous improvement to avoid risks of surgery wherever possible.

what doctor do you see at UCI? UCI in orange correct? off the 22fwy? I live really close and would like to get a evaluated. My symptoms still feel like MAV but it wouldn’t hurt to get looked at. It’s pretty confusing as most of the symptoms you describe also describe MAV… even the head trauma.

I’ll message you.