VN and migraines - Scott, please respond

— Begin quote from “awalkerphoenix”

When I was on the Nori, at it’s peak, I still felt weird under fluorescent and sun light, but not really afraid of it if that makes sense. It was a nuisance, but not an avoid at all costs like it is now. The neuroto noticed this when examining me which is why he put me on Nori in the first place. I don’t think it ever cured it, but at the same time I was more worried about my balance and brain fog back then. Once I came off and the floaters appeared, all he’ll broke loose light sensitive style. There is a chance the nori will make these symptoms go away, but I dont recall it ever making me feel 100% under fluorescents. Under sunlight, then and now, I just fel a little more off, but I think that is because there is so much out there to stimulate my vestibular system, as well as migraine. Hopefully by Friday I will have an idea which drug to ask for since my GP will be no help…

Thanks for all your help Scott.

— End quote

This is all good evidence that the Nori was working for you. It didn’t eliminate your symptoms but it certainly reduced them. Nori works for migraine, not VN.

You may strike it lucky and find a med that knocks out 100% of your symtpoms all 100% of the time. You may also go into spontaneous remission, or gradual remission. But try not to cling to the idea that a med will make you 100% well. Anything above 0% is an improvement, right?

If I might jump in the discussion…the biggest thing that jumps out at me from your posts is your overthinking of your physical symptoms. I’ve been there, believe me! I think most of us have at some point, if we’re not there now. It’s hard not to when we’re living it 24/7. But, this obsessing, if you will, is a sign of anxiety. My therapist talked with me about this in myself in the early days of starting on Celexa, and when I started to notice my thoughts and obsession over every little physical symptom I was having diminish, I also noticed that my overall dizziness, migraine activity, etc., was also subsiding.

You’ve gotten a lot of great advice and I just want to add another strong encouragement to get back on an anti-depressant for that anxiety and hopefully get some other benefits out of it too. You may just have to trial what works best for you. I started with Celexa and honestly the brain fog didn’t go away enough, but it did wonders for knocking out the migraine activity. Prozac was next, but it left my way too jittery and ramped up the migraine activity. I’m now on Lexapro (along with Topamax) and have found a great med combination. But, that isn’t to say that I don’t have my bad days. I’m just coming off a bad couple weeks because I had a cold that threw me for a loop.

But first things first :slight_smile: Get back on Nori or try Celexa to get that anxiety under control. Good luck!

March 2010 I started to have strange dizzy spells. I was suffering from imbalance issues. It took me forever to find out what was wrong. In about 6 months I saw maybe 9 doctors. A few of them were convincing me that I had migraine problems, even after I had testing done 3 separate times showing that I had a large vestibular (inner ear) loss. The doctors felt that Vestibular Neuritis (which I had) would not have lasted that long. They started pushing drugs on me for migraines. These are the drugs I was on, all described by different doctors and specialists. Looking back, this is crazy to see what I tried, but for anyone who has never experienced a vestibular problem as bad as mine, you have no idea how scary it is:

Nortriptyline (tryciclic AD) - About 9 mos, starting at 25mg building to 100mg a day. 100mg for at least 5 mos. This was done with very little Dr. supervision.

Topamax - Only about 2 weeks. I didn’t like the drug and did not trust the Dr.

Neurontin - 300mgs for about 3 months

Klonopin - 2.5 or 5mg depending on situation. Used this as needed.

Valium- 5mg? Used as needed.

Just reread your original post and the dx above from the doctors you saw (Baloh included from another one of your posts) is spot on. You were lucky to be put on the right path at the start even though you didn’t believe them. Many get misdiagnosed with Meniere’s disease and all sorts of crazy crap – even having surgery that was unnecessary.

In reading the above, you really gave the Nori a good go and maybe you should move on. The only thing I wonder is if you have been loading yourself up with some as yet unidentified trigger which didn’t allow Nori to give you the full benefit. That’s possible. What was wrong with Topamax? It’s actually an amazing drug for some and terrible for others but it appears that you tolerated it ok for 2 weeks and might have been good on it. It needs about 3-4 months to really kick in if it sits well with you. A guy on here named Rich was an anxious mess with full on stuff happening. Topamax killed the whole lot for him. All of it.

When do you use Valium or Klon? You’re not dizzy anymore right?

Yes, get your sister to have a good look at your neck, especially around C2. If that gets jammed or knotted up, it can definitely cause head fog.

S

I am no longer dizzy. Just have some balance issues (not falling over or anything, just certain VRT exercises are challenging). Things like head turns and quick movements still throw me off, which i why I have been sticking with the VRT. I know that stuff is related to the Vestibular Damage.

I have not used the Klon or Valium in almost a year. I swore off all drugs when the problems started.

Regarding Topamax, it just really made me feel slower and dumber at the time, so I didn’t want to stick with it. Maybe I didn’t give it enough.

So now I have three suggestions here: Topamax, Nori or Celexa. To me, I’d like to use whatever has the least amount of side effects. I would also like to use what has the best success rate. It seems that Celexa is Baloh’s choice. But I know the Nori has been around a long time, which means it could have more side effects, but also shouldn’t be as dangerous since it is still around.

As far as an unknown trigger, I don’t know what to think. I did the diet while on Nori for 6 months. It really didn’t help with anything, except maybe anxiety. I also did not have the sensitivity to sun, just some to fluorescent lights (I know this bothers migraineurs, but also bother people with VN and most other vestibular problems). When I did the diet back then I stayed off of anything and everything that was a possible trigger. I didn’t drink alcohol for almost a year, which is why I started back up again (just vodka or beer) and didn’t notice much of a difference. It didn’t seem to help at all, but then again, I have never had “episodes”. That’s why I wonder if I don’t have a food trigger. Does everyone have to have one if they have migraines? It can’t just be the vestibular damage and stress/anxiety?

Now I just still have to vent for a minute, even though I know I will get shit frort. I am very anxious about getting back on an AD again. You guys have done a very good job of convincing me about migraines, and I am pretty much sold. I know the only thing that creates the scintillating scotoma is migraine. I also realize that I need something to help calm my nerves and anxiety over what has become of my life. BUT, I also know that for the last year I have read about people having residual visual problems after using AD’s. I have personally talked to people who had them for months and years after and things improved. I have made it a year now with no drugs, and don’t want to mess it up by starting on them again. So now I read two conflicting stories from people. Yes, I do not know what those other’s diagnoses were, but if someone just went on an AD for anxiety, came off of it, and then had floaters and light sensitivity, would that mean they all the sudden had migraines? Or just that the drugs messed with their chemistry? Just as you guys have read about and studied migraines to an extent, I have looked into this a lot over the last year. The other factor is that these symptoms I now live with were not there in any form at all whatsoever before or during my time on Nori, only once I came off, so I don’t really know if it was helping. Wouldn’t the floaters and other stuff have kicked in right when the VN hit? During the first three months or so before I started the Nori? The problems I had with light before I started the Nori are normal for people with Vestibular Dysfunction. There is lots of literature on it.

It would be one thing if I had no other problems that could point to my vestibular problem, but I do. Everything I have read about migraines and dizziness, is that migraine is deduced based on deduction of other factors. I knew what was causing my dizzy spells, it was the VN. That’s why after a few months the dizziness went away. That’s why I got better with VRT. I never got sick when doing the VRT. It has only helped me.

The other thing is, I keep on reading posts on here and what other people have told me. It seems like most people have episodes. They feel ok, and then when I migraine comes they feel worse. They eat a trigger food, and then get worse. Everything is absolutely constant for me. Are you saying I have constant photophobia? That these floaters are just being constantly seen? I have had no remission or anything. I read posts on here and other forums dealing with migraines and it seems like everyone has episodes, which is why it has been so hard for me, and my PT who deals with Dizzies, to come to the migraines conclusion.

One thing I have noticed the last two years, is when someone with a specific disorder has it, they tend to think that everyone else they talk to have it also. That’s the funny thing with vestibular problems, they all can mimic each other. That’s why when I hear of someone complaining, I right away think of VN or vestibular dysfunction, but maybe they have Lyme, or MAV, or something else altogether. So many things can cause brain fog, including vestibular damage.

Please don’t take what I have just said the wrong way. I am just trying to work through all of my thoughts. I know you guys know a lot more about this than me, but I just hope you are open minded and not just looking at migraines because that is what you suffer from. I am not picking a fight or being a jerk trying to start a fight, I am just trying to talk this out so it makes sense. I am scared to do anything that will make things worse. The reason I didn’t totally believe in Baloh when I saw him was because that was his area of expertise, so I wasn’t sure if he was looking at other possibilities. I have had just as many other professionals, including Neuro eye doctors tell me I don’t have migraines because my problems are constant. You guys are right about the anxiety though. You are right about the scintillating scotoma. I just really cannot get over the fact that all of this started when I got off the Nori, so I apologize I cannot wrap my head around it. If I had never started the Nori, I can’t believe the floaters and Scheerer’s Phenomenon would have ever started. The problems with lights were much more bearable before I started any of the drugs, but got much worse when I got off. What makes everything harder is finding a doctor that understands this stuff…

I really, sincerely appreciate everything you guys have been telling me. I am not blowing it off, I am just really on the fence. I just want to get better, but more scared of getting worse. I just want to stop crying all the time from feeling so bad and hopeless.

Scott, I am going to send you some documents to your email shortly.

Thanks again everyone.

What is Scott’s email to send over my scans?

Perhaps there are some people on this board who have experienced a lot of my daily visual problems and found improvement? I can’t seem to find other in my shoes…

Awalkerphoenix,

No offence, but I think you are missing crucial elements in many of our postings. Most of us DO HAVE CHRONIC/CONSTANT symptoms. In my own case I am only now coming out of a period of several weeks of CONSTANT symptoms. I have in the past had these CONSTANT symptoms for MONTHS at a time. This is the case with pretty much EVERYONE on this forum.

I didn’t have time this morning to do more than scan your most recent post but I get that you are reluctant to try an AD. Have you tried CBT? It really is excellent and I think would help you a lot with both your anxiety and obsessive over thinking (I honestly don’t mean that in a bad way, it’s just clear that’s what you’re doing and it’s obviously not helping you manage your anxiety).

Cheers

No offense taken. I am a mess over all this shit. It’s been a year now and I just can’t take it anymore. What is a CBT? I was going to ask the doctor about Calcium Channel Blockers maybe, but I obviously need something for the anxiety. I do recall reading about people having the symptoms for months at a time, but I am going on two years. What I was referring to was when people say “bright lights will make me dizzy” or “if I drink red wine I will be dizzy for days” or “if my neck acts up, my fog returns”. It’s just since I have had the fog and the problem with lights for so long, with no regression, it’s hard for me to envision it ever going away. It feels so permanent. I have had no remission, just the same thing every day. Yes, I am frightened to use an AD again, but that is only because I have correlated it with me getting worse, which a few people have already pointed out to me I need to stop thinking about. I really am trying to psyche myself into thinking an AD will only help me. I do know I need something for my anxiety because I am completely fixated on all this crap, which I am sure most of you can relate to. That’s why I was looking for someone with a very close story to me so I can get out of my head what I have been thinking the last year which was everything was better before and during the AD’s, and got worse after them. This is why it’s been hard to accept they will help me now since I keep thinking they made me worse…

Thanks for the tips Victoria

I just re-read all the posts again and think the Celexa may be the best bet. I might as well try something new since I tried Nori already. I need to calm down ASAP =)

If I only had the time right now to tell you what my life was like when this hit me in April of 2009…

It was constant, all day, every day. I had a 2-year old son and a 2-month old baby to care for. I couldn’t eat, I couldn’t care for my oldest son and had to have my sister and mother-in-law take turns watching him while I laid in bed with my baby. I cried most days wondering what this dizziness, tingling, body aches, brain zaps, numbness in my fingers, red spots on my skins, etc. was all about. I lost too much weight and people worried. I obessed over every ache and pain. I didn’t leave my house except for doctor appointments. The lights hurt my eyes and my head felt like it weighed 100 pounds. I cried every day. I did NOT have headaches during this time. I also doubted migraine as a diagnosis even though I’ve had migraine headaches for years.

You have to do something to get your anxiety (possibly depression??) under control. It makes all your physical symptoms sooo much worse and can cause physical sypmtoms. I’ve been there, believe me, I can empathize and I feel your pain when you say you want to stop crying. I don’t ever want to go back to where I was in 2009. It was awful.

Celexa brought me out of that. I tried natural ways, I didn’t want meds, but i was too far gone and I couldn’t do it on my own.

(By the way, I wasn’t suggesting Topamax, just telling you what works for me now. And I get ear popping/crackling too–I have bad allergies and fluid often builds in my ears as a result. I’m doing allergy shots now. Your sinus issues could be causing this.)

Thanks for that post. I DO know I need to get this anxiety under control, I have just been scared of the meds.

I agree about the ear popping/crackling too, which is why I am anxious to get on a antibiotic that my doctor suggested. Funny enough, the ear noises started because the second ENT I saw was trying to convince me to get my ears to pop via the vasalva maneuver. I tried it a few times and have now had this horrible noise ever since. But I do think it could also have to do with the sinus problems.

The funny thing about the anxiety is that I have it because of the eye problems. I get anxious about the eye stuff, which ramps up the anxiety making the symptoms worse. Bad case of chicken or the egg. If these visual things would get better, or disappear, my life would be so much easier to deal with.

Sounds like the ear crackling stuff is migraine related post VN who knows what. I’d skip the antibiotic at this time. Sinus problems are quite frequently misdiagnosed and are migraine-related.

Yeah, Topamax does make some people feel doped out of their minds. But at 2 weeks it’s way too early to know if that would have stuck. I think if I were you, I’d probably consider Celexa first and then Nori second. Your call though – and talk it over with your doctor of course in deciding. Take the Baloh report and the PDF I sent you previously to the doc appt and don’t bang on too much about caloric result. You’ve been working on that with VRT and may have got as far as you’re going to get – i.e. you have no dizziness which is brilliant. People here would kill to be able to banish the damned dizziness.

Cheers

hi worried about the eye floaters, dehydration etc ? want an answer

i have the dry eyes,floaters light sensivity too all the stuff you explain. i think i had vn aswell as mav. i would say get an ana blood test if you havent already. dry mouth, dry eyes etc can be a sign of sjorgen which can be started by a viral infection. just thought id throw it in, maybe good to rule out/in stuff, just a thought if your really worried it may put your mind to rest :smiley:
becd

— Begin quote from “awalkerphoenix”

No offense taken. I am a mess over all this shit. It’s been a year now and I just can’t take it anymore. What is a CBT?

— End quote

Hi again, sorry, I should have written it in full: CBT is cognitive behavioural therapy. So, no drugs - just learning to think more clearly and without anxiety, i.e. not catastrophising etc. Just helps you to reframe your thoughts to a more calm and rational pace. It’s very easy and is not bullshit - it really works.

I think you probably do need a med to help calm down your migraine symptoms but the CBT would also really help you with anxiety, obsessing and over thinking.

You can do CBT with pretty much any kind of counsellor or therapist or you could just try reading a book - there’ll be a ton out there. Try ‘Feeling Good, the New Mood Therapy’ by Aaron Beck.

Here’s some info on CBT: Cognitive behavioral therapy - Wikipedia

On second thought, I wonder if I should just stick with the Nori since it never gave me side effects before. Did anyone ever have trouble while on Celexa or getting off of it?

Every drug can give someone a side effect they don’t like. Even aspirin will do it for some. I can’t even take vitamins. Asking this question is rather pointless.

Of all the SSRIs, however, citalopram seems to be generally well tolerated and doesn’t jack people up in the start up phase. Even I was able to take it without going nuts. But you might take it and have a bad time or be great on it. Who knows?

The only way to know is to dive in and start. You can kick it off at 5 mg and titrate up to 10 then 15, 20 and so on. If it’s going to work you’ll know it by the time you hit between 10 and 20 mg. Some here are on 40 mg.

Lose the fear of meds. You’ll be fine. The alternative is to never move on from where you are.

Cheers … S

Scott, you get my email ok?

Glad you let me know! It was sitting in my spam folder. Got it now. Will get back to you later. At work at the mo! 8)

Hey awalker,

I couldn’t resist and had to read through your notes from Baloh. I can’t write much now (working) but it is absolutely CLEAR to me that you are dealing with MAV. After reading the history, I am seriously doubting you ever had VN as well given the trajectory. Baloh pointed out some other things that I don’t think you mentioned here.

Would you like me to post your de-identified report here for others to comment on? It’s very good to read this sort of report for others who get confused about their diagnosis despite what to me is glaringly obvious. I too was in the dark for 2 years on this with the same line of thinking as yours so good for others to see and maybe prevent it from happening to someone else.

The good news here is that you are well and truly ready to put this behind you. I think you just needed to hear it from others walking in your shoes.

S

I tolerated Celexa well, did have some start up nausea and GI issues, but nothing too bad. I started low and slow–even lower than 5 mg at 2.5 mg. Then moved up to 5 mg, 10 mg, etc. to 20 mg.

It’s not bad and as Scott says, everyone reacts differently. You have to give it time though, as all meds, it can have some start-up side effects but they will die down and stop.

Good luck!!