Anyone tried acupuncture for balance/dizziness/anxiety/MAV

Non-Pharmacological Treatment "Alternative" Treatments
21

— Begin quote from “Victoria”

Tony,
There are any number of reasons why your sinuses could have cleared up - just because it happened straight after the acupuncture session doesn’t mean that’s the cause. Were you lying down throughout the treatments? I get stuffy sinuses too and if I lie flat, or on my side (the opposite to the stuffed nostril) they will clear. Perhaps that’s what happened to you? And then with your extensive over breathing afterwards you could have helped them remain clear for quite a few hours. Just a thought…

As for insurance companies paying for acupuncture and for that matter homeopathy and other sCAM treatments. Well, good question. IMO it’s got almost zero to do with any science (or they wouldn’t be funded) and about everything to do with the lobbying power of Big CAM/Big Herbal/Big Acupuncture etc etc and the bottom line. So many people do believe in the CAM stuff, including many high profile people (eg Prince Charles in the UK) which has raised the profile of CAM treatments. Also, insurance companies are businesses, not research labs staffed by scientists. They are selling a product. So if they know they can get people to sign up to insurance by offering rebates on CAM therapies - they’ll do it. They don’t care about the evidence, just about the dollars.
Vic

— End quote

Hi Victoria - good point about the insurance companies - makes sense! :slight_smile:
But, to be honest, I’m still not quite buying the ‘lying down’ explanation for my sinuses instantly becoming crystal clear in a way that they haven’t been before or since - sorry! :wink: For example, when I lay down completely flat for a 30 min session in a meditation class, I haven’t found the same result - unfortunately (because that’d be great - meditation AND clear sinuses as a bonus)!! lol
I know there could be other reasons, but I cannot think of any (remember, I haven’t experienced my sinuses being that clear before or since - they were 100%, crystal clear - completely unblocked). I want an explanation too, I really do - because deep down, I don’t buy the acupuncture theory, but how can I deny my experience on those 3 separate occasions? Perhaps there were some ‘magical’ scents in the room, although I can’t remember any specifically…

I just had another thought/angle about the whole ‘controlled experiment’ thing while I was at the gym - just shows how my mind wanders whilst on the cycle! :wink:
To go back to what Scott said earlier:

— Begin quote from “scott”

…the only way you could really know for sure would be to have some controlled sessions where you were given acupuncture for your sinuses, say 10 times. Five with the real deal and five with sham acupuncture done randomly. Then you check out the results. Still not a great trial because n=1 but it would give you a better indication if your effect was real or placebo. My guess is that you’d probably experience clear sinuses from more than one of the sham treatments.
Best … Scott

— End quote

…if I also experienced clear sinuses from more than one of the sham treatments, does that ‘invalidate’ any clear sinuses I might experience with the ‘real’ acupuncture? Does showing that a desired end result (clear sinuses) can be achieved by a 2nd method in any way invalidate any desired end result that is achieved by the 1st method. Don’t we now have 2 methods of possibly achieving the desired end result? :lol:

I’m beginning to think the crux of the matter is this - when Scott said:

— Begin quote from “scott”

… it would give you a better indication if your effect was real or placebo.

— End quote

Do we care? For instance, if I’m visited tonight by a unicorn who cures my MAV, will I care (well, actually I will a little because I don’t believe in unicorns and so will fear for my sanity, but you get my point)! :lol:
I would prefer my MAV to be ‘cured’ by a scientifically proven, controlled approach/drug, etc, but after more than 2 and a half years of 24/7 dizziness, do I really care…hmmm…not really…not anymore - if it was a ‘placebo’ effect - who cares? In fact, what does the ‘placebo effect’ even really amount to - isn’t it the label we give to explain away an end result? It’s the end result we’re after, isn’t it?

Yours truly,

Devils advocate.

22

— Begin quote from “Victoria”

Hey Tony,

I take your point re ‘the end result’ being the most important thing, but for me there’s so many caveats on that.

First off we have to be satisfied that in ‘successfully treating’ a person’s symptoms with, for example, acupuncture, there’s not some undetected underlying cause, including a cause which could be getting worse. So let’s say I’m getting bad headaches and I go and get acupuncture and for the next day (like your sinuses) or even days at a time those headaches disappear. Six months down the track and the acupuncture isn’t cutting it anymore and I go to an actual doctor who does a bunch of tests and delivers the unfortunate news that I have a brain tumour, which is now inoperable (but could have been removed six months ago). Bummer.

Secondly, we have to be ethically comfortable in recommending or prescribing a treatment which we know is no more than placebo. With actual treatments we know that they often deliver a bonus placebo effect, but only in addition to an actual effect. It’s a ‘gift with purchase’ if you will.

Thirdly, as the treatment is known to be placebo only we also have to be ethically comfortable with the notion that the treatment may in fact not even have a placebo effect but the effect may be merely coincidence, regression to the mean or even be as a result of an actual effect which we don’t yet know about or understand. If the latter is the case then the patient is actually taking something completely untested/unknown and it may come with a bunch of side effects.

Fourthly, is it ethical to recommend or prescribe a treatment which is only placebo (or coincidence, regression to the mean etc) which costs money? If I sit in a room and a reiki master tells me that my chi will be best aligned if I burn five $20 bills and, lo and behold, for the next day I DO feel a whole lot better is that really the best use of my $100? Further, if any of those treatments are covered by private or state funded insurance is it ethical that my contributions/tax dollars subsidise your placebo treatment, particularly if that diverts funds away from actual treatments?

So, in my opinion, it’s really only ‘ok’ to go ahead with a placebo treatment if there is no identifiable or underlying cause, the placebo does no harm, the placebo is affordable etc etc.
Vic

— End quote

Hi Victoria,
you make some great points there - totally agree 100% with all of them. :slight_smile:
The first point is very serious - that would be tragic. I personally would never trust ‘alternative medicine’ over ‘western’ medicine (i.e. the first thing I did for investigating the dizziness was have an MRI scan of the brain, blood tests etc). But I guess there are plenty of people that might. Even so, I guess there still exist many stories of people who have been mis-diagnosed by ‘western’ medicine - some people with tragic consequences? But still, I totally agree - we need standards and controls etc!

With the third point, I can’t help but think of how many people on this forum have tried meds for MAV and have given them up due to a bunch of side-effects, and also how the specific mechanism for these MAV meds in terms of exactly how they work within the brain to alleviate MAV symptoms etc, is often unknown? But even so, I totally agree - at least there have been controlled studies etc.

The reiki master in the fourth point had me laughing out loud - wish I had the $20 bills to try it! :lol: But what’s interesting is we have ‘method’ (burn five $20 bills) >> end-result (the next day I DO feel a whole lot better). So the question of “is that really the best use of my $100?” is totally subjective - only the person who did it can answer that!

I guess we’re now looking from the view-point of the medical profession, in terms of ethics and standards, etc, rather than simply looking at whether there exists any end-result attributed to acupuncture (placebo or otherwise)…?

— Begin quote from “Victoria”

As for your own sinus acupuncture treatment - it’s great that you felt better for a day afterwards but how much did it cost you - $50? Is that really worth it for 24 hours of relief?
Vic

— End quote

In terms of my own sinus treatment - if I remember it cost £25 or so (she was a very nice lady), so not very expensive - certainly worth it for the first time because of the sense of wonderment that I felt! And possibly the second, because of the confirmation that I hadn’t imagined it - lol! But not the third time, I guess - which is why I stopped after 3 sessions. :slight_smile:

And now, I think I’m tired of playing devil’s advocate - I’m starting to feel like a ‘fraud’, when I actually would argue the ‘western medicine’ side of the debate normally! If only I could explain those sinus treatments…! :lol:

Best wishes to all,
Tony.

23

— Begin quote from “TeeCee”

Hi Victoria,
you make some great points there - totally agree 100% with all of them. :slight_smile:
The first point is very serious - that would be tragic. I personally would never trust ‘alternative medicine’ over ‘western’ medicine (i.e. the first thing I did for investigating the dizziness was have an MRI scan of the brain, blood tests etc). But I guess there are plenty of people that might. Even so, I guess there still exist many stories of people who have been mis-diagnosed by ‘western’ medicine - some people with tragic consequences? But still, I totally agree - we need standards and controls etc!

— End quote

Hi Tony,

I think that’s a false dichotomy. Of course people get misdiagnosed, but by people, not medicine. Humans have failings and make mistakes all the time. The beauty of the science based method is that, when used correctly, it minimises the risk of human failings. Just because practitoners of medicine make mistakes doesn’t somehow lessen the failings of practices which don’t meet the standard of evidence of the scientific method (aka alternative medicine).

— Begin quote from ____

With the third point, I can’t help but think of how many people on this forum have tried meds for MAV and have given them up due to a bunch of side-effects, and also how the specific mechanism for these MAV meds in terms of exactly how they work within the brain to alleviate MAV symptoms etc, is often unknown? But even so, I totally agree - at least there have been controlled studies etc.

— End quote

Again - a false dichotomy. No-one ever said medicine was perfect, without side effects or that we know everything yet. This is a trap many people fall into regarding CAM - ‘well, western medicine doesn’t always get it right/know everything so the alternative stuff may be an alternative after all’. The difference with medicine is that even for off label use we do know how the medicine is working as an ‘on label’ use and we do know the side effects. So we take it with that level of confidence and with our eyes open as to what side effects are likely to occur and what we are willing to tolerate. The off label uses are not completely random either - they are plausible. We know that migraine is a brain disease and we know the role of serotonin in depression and its possible role in migraine. Given the volumes of people who get good migraine control from ADs gives even more weight to the validity of the off label use. As for the side effects, as I’ve said - these are known (they’re written on the instructions) so an individual is making an informed choice. We also know that a significant number of migraineurs are extremely med sensitive so it is not unexpected that many suffer badly with side effects.

I really don’t see how, logically, anyone can believe there is such a thing as ‘alternative’ medicine. Something works, it is medicine. If it doesn’t it is as Dara O’Brien says, a nice bowl of soup and some pot pourri. Acupuncture has been tested. Over and over and over. It doesn’t do squat. It isn’t a therapy with an as yet unprovable mechanism. No-one can find chi or meridians. Given that acupuncture has been around for thousands of years, unchanged (which is meant to be a good thing) you’d think they’d have found them by now.

— Begin quote from ____

The reiki master in the fourth point had me laughing out loud - wish I had the $20 bills to try it! But what’s interesting is we have ‘method’ (burn five $20 bills) >> end-result (the next day I DO feel a whole lot better). So the question of “is that really the best use of my $100?” is totally subjective - only the person who did it can answer that!

— End quote

Well, we don’t really have a method. All we know is that someone burned the money and the next day they felt better. The idea that the burning of the money made someone feel better is pretty slim. The ritual of the burning may have induced a placebo response but that’s about it. I’m going to invoke Dara O’Brien again. If you have a headache and rub your cat on your head and the next day the headache is gone do you conclude that the rubbing of the cat on the head was the cure? Even if you did that three days in a row? Sounds crazy right but is that really any more crazy than your experience with a lady sticking needles in you and each time your sinuses cleared up (for a day). Does it have to be the same cat everyday, how long should the cat be rubbed for, would burning the cat be even better?

— Begin quote from ____

In terms of my own sinus treatment - if I remember it cost £25 or so (she was a very nice lady), so not very expensive - certainly worth it for the first time because of the sense of wonderment that I felt! And possibly the second, because of the confirmation that I hadn’t imagined it - lol! But not the third time, I guess - which is why I stopped after 3 sessions.

— End quote

Given that the needle lady only ‘cured’ you for about a day each time, to achieve consistent sinus relief you’d be up for 175 squids each week, or 9100 pounds per year. Doesn’t seem too cheap to me!

24

Hey Tony,

My post is super long. Maybe just read this instead:

sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4304

Vic :lol:

25

Hi Victoria - thanks for the link - makes for really interesting reading!
Don’t worry about the long post - all makes perfect sense - I totally agree re. the ‘individual practitioner’ vs. ‘branch of medicine’ arguments. :slight_smile:

— Begin quote from “Victoria”

Given that the needle lady only ‘cured’ you for about a day each time, to achieve consistent sinus relief you’d be up for 175 squids each week, or 9100 pounds per year. Doesn’t seem too cheap to me!

— End quote

Granted, but we’re now getting away from the original ‘can acupuncture produce any kind of end-result’ debate, and into subjective ‘value-for-money’ territory here, perhaps? But, like I said earlier, since the effect was only temporary, I completely understand/agree that it was never a ‘cure’ - I’m more interested in whether an end-result (any end result) was produced.

Love the Dara O’Brien quotes - I remember seeing him on TV doing these in a stand-up routine - superb.
With regards to:

— Begin quote from “Victoria”

Well, we don’t really have a method. All we know is that someone burned the money and the next day they felt better. The idea that the burning of the money made someone feel better is pretty slim. The ritual of the burning may have induced a placebo response but that’s about it. I’m going to invoke Dara O’Brien again. If you have a headache and rub your cat on your head and the next day the headache is gone do you conclude that the rubbing of the cat on the head was the cure?

— End quote

…I get it. But even so, with those ‘burning money’ and ‘rubbing a cat’ examples (albeit funny/silly), there’s still a temporal disconnect - we did something and the next day felt better. What I still cannot explain, is that after having stuffy sinuses my entire life, I had a 20 minute acupuncture session where my sinuses, instantly, perfectly cleared - it almost hurt to breathe that clearly because I don’t believe I ever had done. No temporal delay - instant effect.

Now, I totally, totally understand - I get it - all the scientific evidence amounts to the conclusion that acupuncture cannot work - there are no meridians, no chi - I understand completely. But what I experienced there was real - a real effect - and that, to my mind, is beyond dispute. You can of course think me mistaken, deranged, etc - but that simply will not invalidate, to my mind, what I experienced. I had an ‘end-result’ (even if it only lasted a day or two), and that is what really interests me - I know it’s not a workable, permanent, solution or cure, but it was some kind of ‘cause >> effect’ in action.

So now, I’m left with this puzzle: I had that experience, but have to accept that the acupuncture needles had nothing to do with it. Well, OK, but if this was a novel, it would make for a very unsatisfying ending… :lol:

Best wishes,
Tony.

26

so Q: would we all use magots or swallow tape worm , if it was a clinical double blind placebo trial.
I would and yes! it has been done, and is still being trialed for Celiacs.
So I do wonder how far we all would go , to be free of this debilitating disease called Mav.

I’d eat shit if it helped.

P:S I know this conversation isnt about how far we would go inspite of our mav, but how far would we go? :?
I’ve had strange women do preyers and other almost practising alcemy.
I do anything to be free, suck on toe jam for a year if it rid me of this asshole of a disease.

jen :oops:

27

— Begin quote from ____

So now, I’m left with this puzzle: I had that experience, but have to accept that the acupuncture needles had nothing to do with it. Well, OK, but if this was a novel, it would make for a very unsatisfying ending…

— End quote

It does seem compelling I can see that. You say your nose has been jammed for years and then POOF clear after some needles. I’ve had weird stuff like that happen too. For example, the first session of physio I had on my neck last year almost completely cleared up my MAV for about 3-4 days. I then had a Thai massage session and again slept like a baby waking and feeling like a million dollars. No MAV. It was short lived. I thought I had found the silver bullet. Of course here there is at least a plausible mechanism. The massage loosened up neck muscles perhaps and killed a trigger point that was firing for weeks.

But it never happened again since. I’ve had loads of massages and had physio again. It rid me of the pain and acute stuff and felt good but I never got the clarity again. It’s entirely possible IMO that the first two rounds of physio and massage was a placebo effect. Perhaps it threw a curve ball at my migraine brain, I don’t know.

Put simply, I think most people greatly underestimate the placebo effect and what it can produce for a brief window of time. The Science-based med article is a good read on this. Thanks for the link again Vic.

Scott 8)

28

— Begin quote from “scott”

Put simply, I think most people greatly underestimate the placebo effect and what it can produce for a brief window of time.

— End quote

Hi Scott - I think you’re right - if the acupuncture caused a placebo effect that caused my sinuses to clear (albeit only for a day or two), then I find that pretty incredible in itself!

— Begin quote from “jennyd”

so Q: would we all use magots or swallow tape worm , if it was a clinical double blind placebo trial.
I would and yes! it has been done, and is still being trialed for Celiacs.
So I do wonder how far we all would go , to be free of this debilitating disease called Mav.

I’d eat shit if it helped.

P:S I know this conversation isnt about how far we would go inspite of our mav, but how far would we go? :?
I’ve had strange women do preyers and other almost practising alcemy.
I do anything to be free, suck on toe jam for a year if it rid me of this asshole of a disease.
jen :oops:

— End quote

Hi Jen - I’m with you - grossed out, but totally with you!! :lol:
Best wishes,
Tony.

29

I lay for an hour covered with magnets with an egg on my navel, does that count :smiley:

Christine

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— Begin quote from “cmoc”

I lay for an hour covered with magnets with an egg on my navel, does that count :smiley:

Christine

— End quote

I have to ask. Why??

31

Vic,

I think the magnets were something to do with electro magnetic fields or something, I never did ask what the egg was for, I was trying very hard not to break out in a fit of the giggles. I thought it strange she asked me to wiggle HER toes afterwoulds for HER. I think I was doing some work on her, but she never reduced the fee :frowning:

Christine

32

Chritine, I sat with my sister in laws Kitten in my forhead hopeing it would work.
jen

oops ! sorry I ment kitten… having a moment :roll:

33

Jen thats funny :lol: You could pass that one on to Scott, he will be sat there at work with an umbrella to shade the lights,
a surgical mask, dark glasses and a cat on his head :lol:

Christine

34

A new article today on the placebo effect from Science-based medicine:

[size=160]Placebo Prescriptions[/size]

sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=12511#more-12511