Anyone tried acupuncture for balance/dizziness/anxiety/MAV

Non-Pharmacological Treatment "Alternative" Treatments
1

Has anyone had any sucess with acupuncture to assist the symptoms of MAV / Dizziness / Anxiety ?

I have been having the rocking boat feeling sensation for 19 months , it is not everyday but there are days when it gets worst than other ( very few days feel at 100%) Im following the migraine tyramine diet and feel like is helping.
I had MRI and CT scans and they show normal, have been waiting for so long for a diagnosis that at this point Im willing to try anything !!! The only medicine I tried was SERC and did not do anything, have not tried anything else because out of 19 months dizzy I was pregnant for 9 months plus six months breastfeeding, I dont want to stop feeding the Baby and while Im waiting to see the Neurologist I would like to try acupuncture.

Grateful your advise.

Teresa.

2

I had 8 sessions with the Chinese doctor coupled with reflexology and drinking the Chinese tea which cost me about £400 in all!!!

Did absolutely nothing for me and this was all at the very beginnig of my illness which has now been for 6 months.

Sorry - but my friend tried reflexology and she reckoned it helped her balance issues.

I wish you luck.

3

ditto. i’ve gone to 2 different accupuncture doctors and nothing. they were both in shock that they couldn’t stop my dizziness. i do believe in accupuncture (it helped put me into labor with my first child) and know that it helps other people. my friend has menieres and has been going to one of the same doctors i went to and has not had one single attack in 2 years! i do recommend you trying it out though! it doesn’t hurt, it just feels weird in places when your nerve tingles but it may help your body with other issues as well. good luck!

4

Hi there,

Have a read through this thread. In my opinion it does not work. The best you’ll get is a placebo effect:

http://mvertigo.cloudapp.net/t/acupuncture/817

Best … Scott 8)

5

Hi Teresa,

I’ve tried twice with two different practitioners - one Chinese, and one western (whom I even got funded for seeing by BUPA, so you would have thought there might have been something in it!). I had no success with either :frowning:

The strange thing is, I had acupuncture years ago for blocked sinuses, and even though I was honest and told the practitioner straight out that I didn’t believe it would work (she was an Indian lady whom I was mainly seeing for anxiety/panic disorder issues if I remember, so the acupuncture for sinuses was an incidental, ‘side’ treatment), it worked like an absolute miracle. I could breathe sooo clearly! The effect was absolutely amazing! But…it just didn’t last (about a day or so, then started to wear off). But because I was so doubtful about the treatment, I couldn’t even explain its result via a positive placebo effect!? It transformed my view of acunpuncture - I just couldn’t explain the result - it seemed to be a real physical miracle - completely clear sinuses - I couldn’t stop ‘over-breathing’ (breathing deeply though my nose) for the whole day, just because I could! lol

But unfortunately, for migraine/MAV, I’ve had no success with acupuncture! But I wish you well if you decide to try,
Tony.

6

— Begin quote from “scott”

Hi there,

Have a read through this thread. In my opinion it does not work. The best you’ll get is a placebo effect:

http://mvertigo.cloudapp.net/t/acupuncture/817

Best … Scott 8)

— End quote

I think Scott is right. Frankly, I think that acupuncture and a lot of these alternative methods appeal to our sense of exoticism about the East. We have the hope that perhaps they contain some kernel of truth that Western medicine has overlooked (note: I am not an apologist for Western medicine which overmedicates people). I don’t blame anyone for wanting to look to the East as it were, and I have personally felt that way from time to time, and I certainly would encourage people to try anything and everything. However, I think there is a disconnect in how Westerners think about Chinese methods and how they actually operate. In reality, the Chinese use a system of very slow and gradual adjustments to diet, movement, temperature, and so forth; they are not thinking in terms of ‘cures’ or ‘fixes’ or ‘remedies’ as we understand it. And their system is based on ancedotal evidence and ancient rituals and customs and beliefs. So I think that a lot of people will be let down by Chinese methods especially if we bring a Western attitude to the table.

I say this with some authority since my wife is from Taiwan and she does everything the Chinese way, with all sorts of potions and concoctions – and frankly, there is no clear evidence to support any of it, and a lot of it makes no sense. For example, we have have two daughters aged 2 and 4, and she puts them to bed by wrapping them up like burritos in underwear, covered by pajamas, covered by a belly warmer, inside of a sleepsuit, inside of a gown, covered by a midsection wrap. I am not making this up. Supposedly, it is to keep their temperature regulated since “They throw off their covers at night.” Well, they throw off their covers since they are too heavily wrapped up! She also takes all kinds of potions to regulate her ‘chi’ (which is sort of a life force), she didn’t wash her hair or leave the house for a month after giving birth, and so forth. She is an amazing person and a great wife and mother, but I have to admit that I am dumbfounded by her Chinese way of doing things. And there is not much science behind it. She cooks me fresh ginger every night for the dizziness – it tastes good, but does it help? Who knows, it is a local herbal remedy, and there is no science to back it. Her family think that my dizziness is caused by having a ‘hot liver’ and misaligned chi.

Scott is pretty much correct here, in my opinion, though I wish that he wasn’t. For myself I can say that I am a Western person and need a Western cure. For those who have had success with Chinese/alternative methods, I congratulate you. but it hasn’t worked for me.

7

Yes I did, and it made the rocking sensation worse. sorry

8

Hey Longshort,

Thanks for the post. Wow, your wife certainly has a few rituals going on there. But I suppose it makes her feel that she is making a difference, that she has some sort of control over her health and that of your kids – an almost religious approach – one of faith.

I’m an evidence-based person (and where that is lacking I will turn to expert opinion or at least some reasonable plausibility). But having said that I have certainly screwed up and wasted a lot of money on what I now think is utter nonsense. I don’t like to be thought of as “right” or “wrong”; rather, I’m just going by what the evidence shows. If new compelling evidence suddenly came to light showing that acupuncture does work and has a real mechanism, I’d change my mind. To date, however, with the advance of some very good clinical trials that have added some excellent control arms to acupuncture trials (see previous post I linked to above) it’s quite clear that it is no more than a placebo effect. Most people seem to think they could not possibly be subject to a placebo as though they are being tricked (or might be stupid for doing so) but the fact is that we are all able to experience this no matter what our background.

With regards to the whole Chinese medicine approach I always wonder why it is held in such high regard when you consider life expectancy in China was abysmal until science-based medicine arrived on the scene. Thousands of years of ancient tradition making no impact in life span. Conversely, life expectancy has improved nearly two-fold within in a vert short period of time and is not much farther behind most westernised countries since SBM arrived. To me that speaks volumes.

Scott 8)

9

I completely take on board what Scott is saying about the placebo affect, and western medicine, etc! I like to think I’m as aware as the next person, in terms of not being duped, etc.

But as Scott also says “I’m an evidence-based person…” and that is what I simply cannot deny about my acupuncture experience, with regards to my sinuses! That was no placebo effect, I’m 100% sure of it - they went from being their usual 50% blocked, to being totally, totally clear - not just a little better, but totally clear. I’ve never been able to breathe through my nose like it, before or since. I had the treatment a few more times, and each time it did work, but like I said, the big downside was that it only lasted a day or so, then wore off.

So, taking my own ‘evidence based’ approach, I am forced to conclude that that particular practitioner was able to consistently produce a positive outcome for me. I could not ‘imagine’ or positively-will my sinuses to be totally clear - it was a real effect - evidence, to my mind.

But, like I said, I have had no success in treating MAV with acupuncture and so have to conclude that it is unable to influence this condition (it’s also interesting that my medical insurance actually paid for me to have some migraine acupuncture treatment - I can only assume someone has convinced them of its effectiveness…?).

So, all this leaves me in an awkward position - I agree with Scott and the ‘science-based and controlled-trials and proof’ approach - I don’t believe that acupuncture can positively affect the MAV condition. But I know what my ‘experience’ was with those few acupuncture sessions for my sinuses…perhaps she was an extraordinarily skilled practitioner…?

Tony.

10

Had one session at the start of the assumed MAV period (Sept 07) which did absolutely nothing and in desperation had a longer session about a year later…lovely lady…but absolutely nothing again. I found that the practitioners had no understanding of migraine related dizziness and kept relating the dizziness and other symptoms to stress and suggested I relaxed more and spent more time being kinder to myself. hahahaha. Difficult if one is a) feeling miserably un-self like and b) needs to work full-time to pay mortgage/bills with kids at university or trying to get there and being the main breadwinner. No. Never worked. I also tried Bowen Therapy. Again. Nothing. And CBT. That was useful, but more for other deep-seated issues and certainly did nothing for the MAV symptoms.
4 years on…only the odd swing, generally if knackered…and do still get a really weird heavy/stuffy head feeling with sensations of slitty sore eyes when walking to work in the early(ish) morning, or sometimes when doing a lunch time walk…although we do pound it a bit sometimes.

Thing that “seemed” to work best for me was getting back to exercising regularly…jogging for up to 40 mins 3 x a week.

11

I tried it out of desperation.

It did not do shit for me!

And I will tell you…despite what they say, those little needles hurt like a bugger. :cry:

Some of the spots that they put them in make you cringe.

I would not waste your time, energy, money, or effort here.

Invest it somewhere else!

Todd

12

It doesn’t work. The evidence says so and so does logic. Imagine it hadn’t been used in China for hundreds of years and someone just came up with the idea. You stick needles at various points in your body. These are meant to activate an invisible, immeasurable ‘life force’ which flows on equally invisible ‘meridians’. Sounds completely implausible because it is.

I did try it once and it was uncomfortable and some of the needles did hurt a bit. Other than that it had no effect whatsoever.

13

— Begin quote from “TeeCee”

I completely take on board what Scott is saying about the placebo affect, and western medicine, etc! I like to think I’m as aware as the next person, in terms of not being duped, etc…

— End quote

Ah, but the beauty of the placebo effect is that it works on everyone, not just people we would think of as gullible. It’s an absolutely fascinating topic in its own right (says Mrs Science Geek :wink: ) . If anyone’s interested, here’s a link to Ben Goldacre talking about it: scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010 … ebo_ef.php

Also, another thing to consider is that a lot of conditions are self-limiting (ie will get better on their own) or naturally wax and wane in severity (MAV, IBS, bad backs etc), so just because something improves shortly after acupuncture it doesn’t mean acupuncture is the reason why.

— Begin quote from “TeeCee”

So, taking my own ‘evidence based’ approach, I am forced to conclude that that particular practitioner was able to consistently produce a positive outcome for me. I could not ‘imagine’ or positively-will my sinuses to be totally clear - it was a real effect - evidence, to my mind.

So, all this leaves me in an awkward position - I agree with Scott and the ‘science-based and controlled-trials and proof’ approach - I don’t believe that acupuncture can positively affect the MAV condition. But I know what my ‘experience’ was with those few acupuncture sessions for my sinuses…perhaps she was an extraordinarily skilled practitioner…?

— End quote

Really the only way to test this effectively would be for you to go back when your sinuses are blocked again, several times, and sometimes have real acupuncture, and sometimes have sham acupuncture (where needles are placed in incorrect positions, but you don’t know they are) and see if you only have the improvement when you have the real deal…

Ha ha, bet you wish you never said anything cos you’ve set me off on one of my favourite hobbyhorses… :roll:

14

As a western practitioner myself and one who practices evidenced based medicine, I do not believe accupuncture is grounded in much more than the placebo effect or a chance occurence that someon’e just got better after the session. Vic, what you wrote regarding Tony’s proving or disproving this effect with his sinuses is spot on. So, what do ya say Tony, wanna clear your sinuses with accupuncture again as a little experiement???.lol :wink:

This all being said, if a certain treatment works for someone, regardless of how ridiculous it might sound to me, I will readily prescribe it because if something makes someone feel better regardless of the mechanism of action, I say go for it. However, I cannot prescribe something that doesn’t have the kind of evidence I was trained in given the excessive costs, time, and false hope it might provide a patient.

Warmly,
Lisa

15

Just want to add to the debate here. Just because it’s in a peer reviewed Journal and is based on an RCT, doesn’t mean it’s foolproof or even remotely correct in fact.

We had a fantastic statistics teacher on my MSc who destroyed my faith in anything I read (helpful, eh?).

See theatlantic.com/magazine/arc … ence/8269/

and the original paper it refers to:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182327/

And I’m not on the ‘alternative medicine’ side… although my goodness the reflexology I had last week was impressive :lol:

16

Hehe - this is getting interesting. So, let me reiterate - I’m totally on the side of the ‘western’/scientific, controlled-experiment, proof-based approach.

BUT…I also know what I felt with those few sessions, as regards my sinuses. So, do I completely ignore my actual experience of acupuncture there? Write it off as a fluke (on 3 separate occasions)? Remember, I’ve never found anything that works for migraine/MAV - just those few sessions for my sinuses with a practitioner whom I haven’t seen before or since. :?

I also wonder what on earth would possess an insurance company (BUPA) to actually pay for some acupuncture treatments for migraine??? Insurance companies are often thought to be notorious for not paying out where they don’t have to! When has anyone here ever heard of an insurance company paying out like this - I’d love to know what ‘evidence’ they have or were ‘sold’ to convince them to fund sessions for acupuncture for migraine - I can only assume someone has satisfied them somehow of acunpucture’s effectiveness with regards to migraine - else why would they have funded some sessions for me - answers anyone…?? :?:

— Begin quote from “beechleaf”

— Begin quote from “TeeCee”

I completely take on board what Scott is saying about the placebo affect, and western medicine, etc! I like to think I’m as aware as the next person, in terms of not being duped, etc…

— End quote

Ah, but the beauty of the placebo effect is that it works on everyone, not just people we would think of as gullible. It’s an absolutely fascinating topic in its own right (says Mrs Science Geek :wink: ) . If anyone’s interested, here’s a link to Ben Goldacre talking about it: scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010 … ebo_ef.php
Also, another thing to consider is that a lot of conditions are self-limiting (ie will get better on their own) or naturally wax and wane in severity (MAV, IBS, bad backs etc), so just because something improves shortly after acupuncture it doesn’t mean acupuncture is the reason why.

— End quote

Hi beechleaf! I totally get the ‘duped by a placebo’ argument - hell, I’m probably more gullible than most! :wink:
But let me say this - the amount by which my sinuses were/are blocked certainly varies or ‘waxes and wanes’, but they were never, ever, ever completely crystal clear like they were after those 3 sessions - before or since! I get that people will just doubt what I’m saying - that’s fine. I couldn’t believe it myself! What interests me is just how negative I was about the acupuncture - I told her straight: ‘I don’t believe that this will make any difference…etc…’. I would have expceted a ‘nocebo’ effect if anything, since I didn’t really trust the acupuncture concept at all, and hadn’t tried it before…? After each session, my sinuses went from being their usual ‘x%’ blocked, to being 100%, completely clear, in a ‘the air is so fresh and I can breathe so clearly through my nose that it’s beginning to hurt my nose lining’ kind of way!! It was a real, physiological result, 20mins after the acupuncture started - consistently, each time. As I said, the only issue (and let’s face it, it’s a fairly major one) is that the effect only lasted a day or two each time - the effect consistently wore off each time. :frowning:

Now, it might be that people still say that the ‘physiological’ changes I had were still down to a placebo effect. Well, that’s fine, but in that case, I’m not sure I understand the difference between these scenarios:

  1. Have acunpuncture >>> placebo effect >>> result = totally clear sinuses
  2. Take western-based, scientifically proven medicine >>> result = totally clear sinuses
  3. See latest bizarre pratitioner promising a cure >>> wave a kipper above your head 3 times before retiring to bed >>> placebo effect >>> result = totally clear sinuses :lol:

I guess what I’m saying is, I know the effect I had was a ‘real’, physiological effect, etc. Now, if people are saying that’s a placebo effect, that’s fine - we can stick that label on it. But if the ‘placebo effect’ results in real physiological changes, what’s the difference…?

The big downside was that the effect didn’t last, so perhaps the whole argument is moot. :shock:

I think I’m more confused than ever! :lol:

Tony.

17

Hi Tony,

This is a great discussion. I hear ya thinking it must have had a real effect given that it cleared you right up 3 times but given the robust evidence out there now that acupuncture does not work and that it is completely illogical (there are no meridians etc), the only way you could really know for sure would be to have some controlled sessions where you were given acupuncture for your sinuses, say 10 times. Five with the real deal and five with sham acupuncture done randomly. Then you check out the results. Still not a great trial because n=1 but it would give you a better indication if your effect was real or placebo. My guess is that you’d probably experience clear sinuses from more than one of the sham treatments.

Best … Scott

18

Beech,

I LOVE Bad Science and Ben Goldacre (and it doesn’t hurt that he is pretty easy on the eye). I read his book a couple of years ago and with all this acupuncture talk I feel ready to read it again. Maybe you could do it for your next book club?

Tony,

There are any number of reasons why your sinuses could have cleared up - just because it happened straight after the acupuncture session doesn’t mean that’s the cause. Were you lying down throughout the treatments? I get stuffy sinuses too and if I lie flat, or on my side (the opposite to the stuffed nostril) they will clear. Perhaps that’s what happened to you? And then with your extensive over breathing afterwards you could have helped them remain clear for quite a few hours. Just a thought…

As for insurance companies paying for acupuncture and for that matter homeopathy and other sCAM treatments. Well, good question. IMO it’s got almost zero to do with any science (or they wouldn’t be funded) and about everything to do with the lobbying power of Big CAM/Big Herbal/Big Acupuncture etc etc and the bottom line. So many people do believe in the CAM stuff, including many high profile people (eg Prince Charles in the UK) which has raised the profile of CAM treatments. Also, insurance companies are businesses, not research labs staffed by scientists. They are selling a product. So if they know they can get people to sign up to insurance by offering rebates on CAM therapies - they’ll do it. They don’t care about the evidence, just about the dollars.

Vic

19

Hi Scott - great to speak to you…and thanks for running such a great forum. :slight_smile:

When you say:

— Begin quote from “scott”

Hi Tony,
…My guess is that you’d probably experience clear sinuses from more than one of the sham treatments.
Best … Scott

— End quote

…that was kinda one of my points, if you see what I mean!! :wink:

Just think about that: “…you’d probably experience clear sinuses…”!!! So, what more do we want from a treatment? What determines if it’s a sham, when the end result is the same - i.e. success (clear sinuses)?? That’s what I was saying when I said “…wave a kipper above your head 3 times…”. The method almost becomes immaterial, no? It’s just a way of producing a desired result…?

Are we getting too caught up in labelling, and ignoring the ‘end result’ here? If the ‘placebo effect’ = ‘real physiological change’, then what more are we trying to achieve??

I’m still playing devil’s advocate here, by the way, but I hope you see my point.

Yours confusingly,

Tony. :lol:

20

Hey Tony,

I take your point re ‘the end result’ being the most important thing, but for me there’s so many caveats on that.

First off we have to be satisfied that in ‘successfully treating’ a person’s symptoms with, for example, acupuncture, there’s not some undetected underlying cause, including a cause which could be getting worse. So let’s say I’m getting bad headaches and I go and get acupuncture and for the next day (like your sinuses) or even days at a time those headaches disappear. Six months down the track and the acupuncture isn’t cutting it anymore and I go to an actual doctor who does a bunch of tests and delivers the unfortunate news that I have a brain tumour, which is now inoperable (but could have been removed six months ago). Bummer.

Secondly, we have to be ethically comfortable in recommending or prescribing a treatment which we know is no more than placebo. With actual treatments we know that they often deliver a bonus placebo effect, but only in addition to an actual effect. It’s a ‘gift with purchase’ if you will.

Thirdly, as the treatment is known to be placebo only we also have to be ethically comfortable with the notion that the treatment may in fact not even have a placebo effect but the effect may be merely coincidence, regression to the mean or even be as a result of an actual effect which we don’t yet know about or understand. If the latter is the case then the patient is actually taking something completely untested/unknown and it may come with a bunch of side effects.

Fourthly, is it ethical to recommend or prescribe a treatment which is only placebo (or coincidence, regression to the mean etc) which costs money? If I sit in a room and a reiki master tells me that my chi will be best aligned if I burn five $20 bills and, lo and behold, for the next day I DO feel a whole lot better is that really the best use of my $100? Further, if any of those treatments are covered by private or state funded insurance is it ethical that my contributions/tax dollars subsidise your placebo treatment, particularly if that diverts funds away from actual treatments?

So, in my opinion, it’s really only ‘ok’ to go ahead with a placebo treatment if there is no identifiable or underlying cause, the placebo does no harm, the placebo is affordable etc etc.

As for your own sinus acupuncture treatment - it’s great that you felt better for a day afterwards but how much did it cost you - $50? Is that really worth it for 24 hours of relief?

Vic