Gut Brain Therapy?

Yes, the above is from what I called benzo demonizers. Go to crazymeds.us to see the experiences of lots and lots of people who take benzos for reasons varying from GAD, psychosis to grand-mal seizures, and you’ll find that they laugh them (including the ashton manual, which is (in)famous for taking things extremely slow, and is mostly for people who have failed to withdraw the normal way) in the face, given how each of them has, with the support of a good psychiatrist of course, come off benzos MUCH faster than a year with no problems whatsoever. Many didn’t have any withdrawal symptoms whatsoever.

People who come off their drugs easily rarely complain. Thus all we see are the people who are having problems coming off. This is always important to remember when checking up on meds online, since the same applies to side effects, efficacy etc.

(NO, I am not saying it’s always easy; absolutely not. Just that it’s NOT super-hard for everyone… that’s more the exception unless you’ve been taking them for REALLY long, where a few years doesn’t quite cut it as “REALLY”.)

This is not from “demonizers”; the demonizers says its worse than heroin to come off. I havent quoted anything saying that.

This information is from benzowithdrawal.com and a doctor + professor (who has seen many many “cases”), and also from people at the mdds site who simply have found it impossible to stop taking it. They were on less than 1,5mg a day… Are you implying that they are lying?

Crazymeds are full of ppl with usually more than 3 diagnoses; MDD, ADD, Bipolar disorder, general anxiety disorder, epilepsy… The list goes on. I wouldnt consider them a normal controlgroup, would you? Most of them take not only a benzo but 4-5 other meds including other gaba-analogues.

Of course there will be those that are in the lower extreme in terms of withdrawal, and yes for it taking over a year would be considered upper extreme. The question is what its like for most people… Taking a drug that causes physical dependency for over a year is quite some time. Didnt you have your own experience with a benzo after only a month of it?

Lets put it this way, if you had questions about tapering off an addictive medication. Would you go to crazymeds where they pop more pills than your 90year old grandma with alzheimers, or would you go to a doctor and professor who has seen hundreds/thousands of these cases?

— Begin quote from “MikaelHS”

This is not from “demonizers”; the demonizers says its worse than heroin to come off. I havent quoted anything saying that.

This information is from benzowithdrawal.com and a doctor + professor (who has seen many many “cases”), and also from people at the mdds site who simply have found it impossible to stop taking it. They were on less than 1,5mg a day… Are you implying that they are lying?

Crazymeds are full of ppl with usually more than 3 diagnoses; MDD, ADD, Bipolar disorder, general anxiety disorder, epilepsy… The list goes on. I wouldnt consider them a normal controlgroup, would you? Most of them take not only a benzo but 4-5 other meds including other gaba-analogues.

Of course there will be those that are in the lower extreme in terms of withdrawal. The question is what its like for most people… Taking a drug that causes physical dependency for over a year is quite some time. Didnt you have your own experience with a benzo after only a month of it?

Lets put it this way, if you had questions about tapering off an addictive medication. Would you go to crazymeds where they pop more pills than your 90year old grandma with alzheimers, or would you go to a doctor and professor who has seen hundreds/thousands of these cases?

— End quote

Where was I implying that the mdds people are lying?? I did explain that: only people who find it hard come out and say so. Why would anyone want to post about how easy it was to quit a drug? Some do, but it’s WAY more rare than people posting about their difficulties.

My point is that Ashton has seen all those tough cases because they couldn’t quit on their own. Not everyone who needs to quit a benzo go to a withdrawal clinic, only those who really, really can’t quit on their own do. As such, all the worst cases end up there, and none of the “well, this was a breeze” people do. They’re already off.

And yup, I had 2-4 days of pretty bad withdrawal (the first day naturally being the worst) after three weeks on xanax, one of if not the most addictive benzo, but I was on a high dose (2 mg/day) and quit 1 mg cold turkey (after 1 week on 1 mg) on doctor’s orders, since I had only been taking it such a short time it shouldn’t pose any danger).
To put it into perspective, that dose was enough to move me from a complete WRECK who just barely got out of bed due to a 2-week-long panic attack with extreme insomnia, to sleeping 11 hours a night and just some slight daytime anxiety.
Edit: Not only that, but the feelings I had afterwards were similar to what I experienced before the xanax, which with 99% certainty were because of the SSRI I started 1-2 weeks earlier (which was what made me bedridden etc. in the first place, from day one).

— Begin quote from ____

It was at its worst during my week of xanax withdrawal (was on Xanax XR 2mg for two weeks, then 1mg for one week, then zero). At that point I honestly couldn’t figure out if I was dreaming or not.

— End quote

— Begin quote from ____

My point is that Ashton has seen all those tough cases because they couldn’t quit on their own. Not everyone who needs to quit a benzo go to a withdrawal clinic, only those who really, really can’t quit on their own do. As such, all the worst cases end up there, and none of the “well, this was a breeze” people do. They’re already off.

— End quote

Well what hinders me from arguing its the same with heroin? That this holds true doesnt by any way say that it couldnt as well be true that benzos are v hard to quit taking, simply by the fact that most will need help in some form by doing so. I could simply argue that the percentage of people you are talking of are quite small…

xanax is by the way equal to klonopin in potency, and yes its considered one of the most addictive benzos, but then again thats from experience from rehab cliniques, but then who knows how many people just throw it in the dumpster one day and goes of clogdancing into the sunset?

I dont really know what were arguing about; if you wont agree that benzowithdrawal can be quite bad and usually is fairly bad for most people (and takes weeks to months or even a year or more depending on dosage + time + what drug), then I guess theres not much more to talk about; also its a difference between ridding yourself of a drug and still feeling an aftermath of it…

This is not about the whole pxp/julie-mess, if she could quit her meds cold turkey then good for her, but this isnt how it would be for most people. That you argue any differently is damn irresponsible, considering people come here and read to get advice (anyone reading this, i am not suggesting you not to take any type of medication, only to not take advice straight of from here but to always be critical and get your own idea of what to expect)…

— Begin quote from “MikaelHS”

I dont really know what were arguing about; if you wont agree that benzowithdrawal can be quite bad and usually is fairly bad for most people (and takes weeks to months or even a year or more depending on dosage + time + what drug), then I guess theres not much more to talk about. This is not about the whole pxp/julie-mess, if she could quit her meds cold turkey then good for her, but this isnt how it would be for most people. That you argue any differently is damn irresponsible, considering people come here and read to get advice (anyone reading this, i am not suggesting you not to take any type of medication, only to not take advice straight of from here but to always be critical and get your own idea of what to expect)…

— End quote

I think there’s some kind of misunderstanding here.
I’m NOT saying that they’re always easy to come off. I’m ABSOLUTELY NOT saying you should quit without a careful taper under supervision of a doctor, ever!
Weeks to months isn’t really such a long time in perspective, though, since the same timeframe goes for most antidepressants, anticonvulsants and whatnot that often take months. Some SSRIs (especially notorious here is Paxil) can take people more than a year.

Also, Julie did not quit cold turkey, she’d been tapering for quite a while. I don’t know at what point she ditched it though.

Tran,

Also, Julie did not quit cold turkey, she’d been tapering for quite a while. I don’t know at what point she ditched it though.

To clarify, around Dec 10, the person in question was on Topamax, Neurontin, benzos and Pristiq. To be med free now means that four hard core drugs would have been dropped in approximately 12 weeks. That’s extraordianary for a person who had been in constant migraine hell for many years.

Scott 8)

I’m not really commenting on the true topic of this thread, BUT I will say let’s try not to fall into scare tactics and/or too much arguing here. I mean, I read the stuff above about Klonopin and felt like I was going to have an ANXIETY attack from just reading about it! Let’s not scare people. The thing to remember is that everyone reacts to meds differently and some may have more or less problems coming off a med. I have read and heard from docs that if you are on klonopin low dose (.5 daily), you shouldn’t have any problems coming off. I am on that, taking .25 in the am and .25 in the pm; I may need to come off it soon if my other med is changed. Even if not, eventually I will and I sure as heck don’t need to be worrying about THAT on top of things. One has to take things with a grain of salt so to speak - meaning not to freak when we read how awful a drug may be to quit, as well as realize you can’t just quit cold turkey. Please keep this in mind when posting; no one here needs to be scared/have anxiety triggered when reading a post. Thanks.

— Begin quote from “scott”

Tran,

Also, Julie did not quit cold turkey, she’d been tapering for quite a while. I don’t know at what point she ditched it though.

To clarify, around Dec 10, the person in question was on Topamax, Neurontin, benzos and Pristiq. To be med free now means that four hard core drugs would have been dropped in approximately 12 weeks. That’s extraordianary for a person who had been in constant migraine hell for many years.

Scott 8)

— End quote

Dec 5 she told me “Quitting Neurontin was not a big deal” so at least one of those are wrong. :slight_smile:

— Begin quote from ____

I’m not really commenting on the true topic of this thread, BUT I will say let’s try not to fall into scare tactics and/or too much arguing here. I mean, I read the stuff above about Klonopin and felt like I was going to have an ANXIETY attack from just reading about it! Let’s not scare people. The thing to remember is that everyone reacts to meds differently and some may have more or less problems coming off a med. I have read and heard from docs that if you are on klonopin low dose (.5 daily), you shouldn’t have any problems coming off. I am on that, taking .25 in the am and .25 in the pm; I may need to come off it soon if my other med is changed. Even if not, eventually I will and I sure as heck don’t need to be worrying about THAT on top of things. One has to take things with a grain of salt so to speak - meaning not to freak when we read how awful a drug may be to quit, as well as realize you can’t just quit cold turkey. Please keep this in mind when posting; no one here needs to be scared/have anxiety triggered when reading a post. Thanks.

— End quote

Im sorry that I caused you anxiety. As you say we are all different; im totally confident that you will be able to stop taking it once you choose to do so, just take your own time is my suggestion (not doctors orders!).

Julie again?! I dont think anyone except maybe a few if even that are interested to hear about whether she did this or that; I sure as hell am not. If anyone wants to continue that discussion with anyone else, why not pm that person?

In conclusion, if pxp would show itself to be the miracle-cure it claims to be, then I am confident that it will be recognized soon enough. After all, even doctors are buying the stuff now, isnt that so? So why not simply wait and see? If something could cure not only migraines (70-80% of cases) but leukemia, MS (70% of cases), AUTOIMMUNE DISORDERS (faulty genes!) Alzheimers etc, and also do that singlehandedly it would not only be THE biggest Acheivement and most potent medicine (without any sideeffects I might add!) ever in the history of the world, it would be the biggest Acheivement EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER… EVER… If this is so, then It will surely be a worldwide product in a few years. I see no reason not to simply wait and see, and let the answer unfold itself…

If it were to be that way, I would of course say that I was misstaken. I hope the opposite holds true for anyone believing in this product.

Nobody EVER said it cures leukemia. Read again.
Sad truth: the boy died. Not that there’s any wonder to that - at that stage there’s pretty much nothing to do, “miracle cure” or not, it was too late even if it WOULD cure leukemia (which, again, nobody is saying it does).

— Begin quote from ____

The word is out because it works. A little boy with leukemia. I told the parents it was too late (my remark) for PXP to help him, his prognosis was weeks to months. they said: “the doctor ORDERS IT!!!” …

— End quote

Saying it is too late for something to help someone NOW does however mean that something would be helpful if it were given earlier; do you not agree with that?

Do you honestly think whether the claim of leukemia is in or not, that it changes my argument substantially? If you want to I can remove that and throw in gum disease, baldness and a couple of other stuff instead. Would you not agree that such a great elixir surely must be around the globe and in every home in a few years tops?

Pm me if you want to talk more about this, no point stealing space =)

Hi BC,

— Begin quote from “bcrelief”

I am on that, taking .25 in the am and .25 in the pm; I may need to come off it soon if my other med is changed. Even if not, eventually I will and I sure as heck don’t need to be worrying about THAT on top of things.

— End quote

Yeah, don’t worry about this. I think you can be very certain that Hain knows what he’s talking about with this and you’re following precisely what he says is fine:

— Begin quote from ____

Benzodiazepines are GABA modulators, acting centrally to suppress vestibular responses. In small doses, these drugs are extremely useful. Addiction, impaired memory, increased risk of falling, and impaired vestibular compensation are their main shortcomings. Lorazepam and Klonazepam are particularly useful agents because of their effectiveness and simple kinetics. [size=130]Addiction, the biggest problem, can usually be avoided by keeping the dose to 0.5 mg BID or less.[/size] Similarly, low doses of diazepam (Valium) (2 mg) can be quite effective. Clonazepam (Klonopin), appears as effective a vestibular suppressant as lorazepam. The author prefers to avoid use of alprazolam (Xanax) for vestibular suppression, because of the potential for a difficult withdrawal syndrome. Long acting benzodiazepines are not helpful for relief of vertigo.

— End quote

Will email you soon … Scott 8)

Hi Tran,

— Begin quote from “Tranquillity”

Nobody EVER said it cures leukemia. Read again.
Sad truth: the boy died. Not that there’s any wonder to that - at that stage there’s pretty much nothing to do, “miracle cure” or not, it was too late even if it WOULD cure leukemia (which, again, nobody is saying it does).

— End quote

You are correct here although the person alluded to this being so. Whatever the case, when someone is deathly ill like this poor little boy nothing makes my blood boil more than a quack offering some bogus therapy that can end up costing a family hundreds/thousands of dollars all because they are feeling so desperate. These charlatans prey on people like this and take full advantage of the situation. There was some quack in the US using “coffee enemas” to cure cancer and would of course charge thousands of dollars to the dying people. Totally outrageous. Instead of the money being left for good use (the patient in the report was terminal and way beyond recovery) the family ended up wasting tons of money on some pseudoscience nonsense. That story was a heart breaker.

Scott 8)

The only difference here, Scott, is that some of us are actually having good results with PXP.

No one is making ridiculous claims. Just you.

The shame of it is, you refuse to believe it.

Kim

Edit: If you read Julie’s post - she never claimed it would cure Leukemia. She actually even told the woman that. Her only point being - Doctors are ordering it for patients.

Let me ask you one final question Scott - As sick as you are, if “snake oil” worked for you - Would you take it? You’ve definitely wasted your money on some in the past, but had it worked, you’d still be taking it yes??

Kim,

You know PXP is like the rubber duck that just won’t sink. It just keeps bobbing up time and again. Did you even read the post on identifying pseudo-treatments and quackery? You need to pay particularly close attention to the following points because you’ve swallowed it all – hook, line and sinker. I’m trying to drag you back to reality:

— Begin quote from ____

  1. [size=130]Hostility towards criticism[/size] – proponents of a specific belief respond to scientific criticism of that belief by saying they’re being picked on or singled out, or that there’s a conspiracy against them. Science, by contrast, thrives on criticism. Hostility towards criticism indicates that what the person is doing or believes in is not scientific.

  2. [size=130]Heavy reliance on testimonials and anecdotal evidence[/size] rather than specifically referenced research. The personal anecdote is essentially the cornerstone of any unscientific modality or treatment. They make vague references to data saying “doctors say…, experts say …” but never give a specific reference that anyone can check up on.

  3. The [size=130]pseudo-treatments often promise simplistic solutions[/size] to complex problems or questions. They come up with products that cover the theory of everything or claim to cure everything. This is a huge red flag. There is never one simple solution to explain all that there is, particularly in human disease. The more people try to explain things using less, the more skeptical you should be.

  4. The pseudoscientist [size=130]uses scientific sounding but ultimately meaningless language or jargon (techno-babble and buzz words)[/size] in an effort to impress and add complexity to things without any specificity. They use bold and absolute statements rather than the very conservative and qualifying statements seen in real science. They’ll typically use words that are made to confuse rather than to illuminate. Real science uses legitimate language to increase the precision of language and to make things unambiguous.

  5. [size=130]Pseudoscientists attempt to shift the burden of proof away from themselves[/size] saying things like “you can’t prove me wrong!” … that you can’t prove their theory is not true. This is backwards. If it’s their theory or cure, the burden is upon that person to prove it is correct.

— End quote

It’s always you guys making all the noise about this when PXP is criticised (see point 1). No one else dare criticise it because you’d be all over them.

some of us are actually having good results with PXP

To reiterate one more time:

  1. Luke is the only person we know who has given this a fair trial and it did nothing for him. He is also UNMEDICATED. Yes, it is only one case and yes it is anecdotal, but given the ridiculous and ludicroius claims made about the magic powder it stands to logic and reason that Luke would not experience any effect – and he did not.

  2. You, Kim, are MEDICATED with propranolol. You said to me yourself just over 2 weeks ago that “the jury was still out and like we all know, migraines definitely cycle.” That is NOT a good PXP result, and indicates nothing. It’s just the norm with MAV. We have good periods and bad, and I’m glad you are in a good period at the moment.

  3. The other individual’s current use of meds is unknown and we will likely never know because it presents a conflict with that person’s business and income stream.

  4. There is NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE or PLAUSIBLE mechanism.

  5. PXP easily fullfills the above criteria for pseudoscience. It’s bunk and it’s quackery.

Kim, instead of endlessly arguing with me about this and asking me the same questions over and over again which I’ve already answered, use your own head and mind this time and THINK about this before you post again. I mean really truly sit down, empty out any emotional bias (or anger you have towards me), and really THINK about it. The claims are simply ludicrous - completely and utterly ludicrous. You must have a BS detector in there somewhere. It’s like you’re asking me to debate alchemy or the existence of leprachauns - and I’m sure your wouldn’t have a bar of that.

Scott 8)

ps. as a rather funny aside (and I hope you PXP believers haven’t lost your sense of humour) someone here pointed something out to me today from the PXP website. It says the following: “Alpha PXP forte is a soft white powder … harvested in the Siam Valley of Thailand”. I’m starting to wonder if this stuff isn’t just pure cocaine or heroin! That would at least explain the high price tag and the fantastic testimonials. Suddenly there is plausibility. Maybe I have missed the boat! :smiley:

— Begin quote from “scott”

Hi Tran,

You are correct here although the person alluded to this being so. Whatever the case, when someone is deathly ill like this poor little boy nothing makes my blood boil more than a quack offering some bogus therapy that can end up costing a family hundreds/thousands of dollars all because they are feeling so desperate.

— End quote

  1. The doctor ordered the family, Julie (whom I support is the quack in your sentence…) didn’t do anything wrong. Also, it was NOT meant as an ALTERNATIVE to scientifically accepted methods but a LAST RESORT, literally “it can’t hurt”. In such cases, alternative medicine is OK in my book. Don’t try it: you die. Try it: you might still die. Why NOT try it?
  2. The product didn’t make it to the family before the boy died, anyhow, so it’s all a moot point, really.

— Begin quote from ____

Julie (whom I support is the quack …)

— End quote

Quacks are doctors/practitioners who believe in and peddle pseudoscience nonsense. Julie is not a doctor or a practitioner but she’s still a first class quack.

— Begin quote from ____

literally “it can’t hurt”

— End quote

You totally missed my point. It does hurt them – in the pocket book.

Let it go Tran. You are a believer in this sort of stuff and that’s fine. It’s usually impossible to make believers in woo understand another view with or without evidence. Just make sure you don’t get ripped off when you try it (if you try it) and make them stick to the money-back guarantee. Give it 3 months and allow for any initial placebo effect to wear off or for any natural MAV fluctuation to pass by. If you jump the gun and think you feel better on it - even by a small margin – by placebo effect alone, that will likely be grounds for the sellers to say to you that it is working and you’ll be kissing your money goodbye. I think you mentioned you would trial it without any other meds in the picture. That will at least be a better trial than what we’ve seen here so far by the hardcore proponents (apart from Luke). And, if it’s the miracle cure-all “white powder” from the sunny Siam valley as they say, you definitely won’t need any meds anyway.

Scott 8)

— Begin quote from “scott”

You totally missed my point. It does hurt them – in the pocket book.

— End quote

You really don’t think $200 a month for AT MOST 2-3 months is acceptable to try for a child dying in cancer? (If you for one second give up the “utterly implausible” part, that is :slight_smile: Homeopathy is utterly implausible; this has active ingredients and has been studied (and further studies are on the way or in progress from what I’ve read) and so could well work.))

— Begin quote from “scott”

Let it go Tran. You are a believer in this sort of stuff and that’s fine. It’s usually impossible to make believers in woo understand another view with or without evidence. Just make sure you don’t get ripped off when you try it (if you try it) and make them stick to the money-back guarantee. Give it 3 months and allow for any initial placebo effect to wear off or for any natural MAV fluctuation to pass by. If you jump the gun and think you feel better on it - even by a small margin – by placebo effect alone, that will likely be grounds for the sellers to say to you that it is working and you’ll be kissing your money goodbye. I think you mentioned you would trial it without any other meds in the picture. That will at least be a better trial than what we’ve seen here so far by the hardcore proponents (apart from Luke). And, if it’s the miracle cure-all “white powder” from the sunny Siam valley as they say, you definitely won’t need any meds anyway.

Scott 8)

— End quote

The thing is: I’m not a complete believer in this stuff, no. That’s what it looks like from defending it from unjust comments - it hasn’t been trialed for MAV and as such it’s hard to say that it’s ineffective, no? (Do keep in mind that you use anecdotal evidence to recommend e.g. cipramil too, which also hasn’t been trialed AFAIK).

Also, if I do try it, why the heck do you think I’d keep paying up for an improvement so small it might just be a fluke? For that price I want a lot more than that, like Julie’s cure (no matter what you think that came from) and if I do try it and don’t feel a BIG difference then out it goes.
Trying alternative stuff doesn’t have to make you a gullible idiot. We’ve seen many members shell out big money for completely unproven treatments here already (many NOT with a money back guarantee at that), and I’m not jumping on their backs!

Tran,

Your comparison of Cipramil with PXP is a logical fallacy. We’ve been there before and I did my best to explain to you why this is not a correct comparison.

Scott