Has anyone tried Gut Brain therapy? The website is foreverwell.com I was just wondering if anyone has had any luck with it. Thanks.
Hi dizzyinaz,
I had a good look at it a few days ago and looked at the study they have on the site. I think there is definitely something going on with migraine and the gut. Why do so many have IBS with migraine (including myself)? However, there are numerous red flags on this site:
-
The price of the product is exorbitant. It’s the same sales angle as PXP. Take people for lots of money immediately in case they don’t come back. And I suspect a lot never return when they realise there’s no effect.
-
The site has all the usual buzz words: “incorporate ancient healing traditions and philosophies”, “new and powerful way”, “build up of toxins within the body”, “natural”. The word “natural” shows up on some of the pages numerous times because they know it makes people light up like a Christmas tree. This is like a page directly from the PXP site.
-
The study they conducted was “open label” which means that everyone knew that they were getting the treatment and the researchers knew they were all getting the treatment. It was as not a blinded study which opens the door to huge amounts of bias and sets the stage for a nice big placebo effect. Even in the best randomised controlled double blinded trials, the placebo effect in migraine studies is huge. It’s so bad that it’s often difficult to know even if a real medication is effective. Studies like that are usually replicated to tease out the truth. Anyway, you can bet your boots that there was both biased reporting and placebo effect here. Was it conducted by an independent group? We don’t know. I will at least give them credit for saying that some people in the study saw no effect. We haven’t even seen a PXP study yet and probably never will.
So as usual, buyer beware. Just be aware of the points I made if you decide to jump in.
Best … Scott 8)
— Begin quote from “scott”
However, there are numerous red flags on this site:
- The price of the product is exorbitant. It’s the same sales angle as PXP. Take people for lots of money immediately in case they don’t come back. And I suspect a lot never return when they realise there’s no effect.
— End quote
First off, I should say that I’m NOT sure about the PXP stuff myself, even though I’ve been writing a lot recently (mostly to defend Julie from unjust comments, but that is obviously NOT the case in this thread).
That said… “Take people for lots of money immediately in case they don’t come back” doesn’t make sense when they (Enzacta) have a 100%, no-questions-asked money back guarantee. If people simply bothered asked the person they bought it from, they’d be refunded. So that makes no sense at all… If they wanted to rip people off they wouldn’t have that guarantee, unless people are so damn lazy they won’t bother to ask (in which case they are either rich, so it doesn’t matter, or stupid ;)).
There are a lot of alternative treatment that people on this board are considering or have tried. Jaw adjustment for migraine? Pretty controversial (very controversial when they claim cures). Hormone balancing with a huge fee upfront? Very controversial. A mix on nano-hydrolized(?) rice that the mitochondria can use as energy as-is? Very controversial.
What I’m trying to say here is, many of us are looking towards at least one thing that is really NOT scientifically proven - since all scientifically proven methods suck, and often only offer, for migraine headaches, a 50% reduction in headaches for 50-70% of users. That’s just not acceptable, if I had a 50% reduction in headaches I’d have them 15 days a month, and that is no life.
So, where are all the studies on the migraine program? 
Would be interesting to read.
Tranquility,
mostly to defend Julie from unjust comments.
Why do you feel the need to defend Julie? No one has attacked her in any way. No need to troll. It’s PXP we were discussing, not Julie. Julie just happens to be the person making migraine cure claims on a product she is now marketing herself all the while taking pharmaceutical drugs for MAV. You can draw your own conclusions. If you want to throw your cash at PXP without looking at its plausability then go for it.
The Migraine Program is not great in terms of solid evidence and I was highly suspicious of it but it is a hell of a lot more plausible then an over-priced rice and seaweed powder. Dzugan has published a book on the Program which is fully referenced with sound scientific explanation. There are some studies (but not great) on the use of bioidentical hormones for migraine control. That migraine has a strong hormonal component is well documented. There is plausability there. There is no plausability with PXP. Zero. The team behind the Migraine Program analyse a pile of tests they order up looking at biochemical markers and hormone levels in your blood stream. Roberto (who has been on this forum and a friend of mine here in Sydney) is controlling his migraines with this program and has done so for 3 months. He’s an MD and knows his stuff and did the homework before taking the plunge. At the end of the day it was his success that tipped the balance for me. Still it was risky as hell.
To expect a 100% cure from any one treatment is probably very wishful thinking when it comes to migraine. You say it’s not acceptable but that’s the reality. It seems to mostly require mutli-pharmacy.
The money-back guarantee does not suddenly make something legitimate. It’s used by all sorts of quacks peddling treatments and other products – think infomercials. I wonder how many actually ask for their money back when they don’t get a result? Worse, what if the product was purchased through a friend? You would be less likely to ask for your money back. I doubt many do hence the use of this in a lot of marketing scams.
many of us are looking towards at least one thing that is really NOT scientifically proven
Why would you do that? Why would you spend your money on something that lacks any evidence and is not even remotely plausible, something that claims not to cure just migraine but about 30 other diseases? It’s ludicrous and without any reasonable evidence, you’d be crazy to throw your money away. Don’t let desperation cloud your judgement.
Scott 8)
ps. This email arrived from Luke just hours ago to me and here’s what he said word for word:
“PXP doesnt work - I took it for 2 months and I’m still dizzy. Back on the meds for me soon to kick this again - anyone recommend a good med apart from Pizo to try THAT ACTUALLY HELPS!”
Hi all -
Looks like I’ve been missing some things here in the past couple of days. I’m on my way out the door, so I have very little time right now, but I would definitely like to put my two cents in regarding PXP.
For those that don’t know, I’ve been taking PXP for over a month now, and am feeling quite well. :mrgreen: Don’t worry, I’m not selling it - in fact, if anyone wants it, you’ll have to get it the same way I did.
Scientific claims? Hell, I don’t know. I don’t even care. I say whatever works. If standing on my head in the corner for 3 hours a day would take away my Migraine Hell, you can be sure I’d be right there, and I wouldn’t give a Hoot what anyone thought. People think I’m nuts because I’m so “anti-MSG”. But you know what? When I eat MSG, it sends me spinning. Just like the old days. So I avoid ALL MSG, because I Don’t Like to Spin !!!
Scott, you asked me the other day in PM how it was going for me with the PXP. You told me it didn’t work for Luke, and that it was a waste of money. Well, it may very well be a waste of money for him, but you can’t say its a waste for everyone. I told you that I’m still on the fence about it. I’m not singing its praises yet, and I’m not gonna shout from the highest mountain that I am cured. We all know there is no cure for Migraine. But I am well, I’m not spinning, and I’m busy living my life. Is it the natural ebb and flow of Migraine? Hell, I don’t know. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe its the PXP. Maybe not. Maybe its the Propanolol that I’ve been on for 3 years, I don’t know. I’ve been dealing with migraine (and all of its nasty quirks) for 23 years now. I know my body, and I’ve unfortunately gotten to know migraine all too well.
As far as the “placebo effect” ??? Well maybe, but even so, I’m still better off than many on this board. I say if it works DO IT!!!
We established on this board, over and over, time and time again, what works for one, doesn’t work for the next. Obviously - just look at the list of migraine preventatives.
I think PXP has taken a pretty hard slap on this board, and unfairly so. Yes, there are ALOT of unscrupulous websites selling all kinds of cures. Many of us thought you flipped your lid when you forked over $2,500 for the Migraine Program Scott. But no one “dogged” you about it. From what I understand, the program has worked for some (just not for you).
You all are talking “scientific research”. Well, if anyone had the answers, none of us would need to be here.
Anyway, I’m late to work now. My intention was to never bring up PXP on this forum again, unless asked. Sorry all - I just couldn’t sit back and say nothing.
Kim
Hi Kim,
Let me put it to you this way: at what point would you think to yourself that a proposed treatment option was ridiculous or did not pass your own personal criteria for what would constitute a reasonable and plausible treatment option for MAV?
For example, let’s suppose you walk into a health food shop tomorrow and in the shop is a product that claims to absolutely cure migraine. The package is well-presented, there’s a beautiful, glossy brochure next to it with smiling, happy families on it, and the brochure makes lots of incredible claims about how it not only cures migraine but a whole host of ailments. Even better, it’s “natural”. The package has a clear front on it and there are 5 clear tubes with a red liquid in them. The lady behind the counter says “oh yes, I know a few people who no longer have migraines after having used product X. The liquid is produced using advanced biotechnologies allowing it to enter and heal your cells in a way that no other nutrient can.”
The cost of product X is hundreds of dollars per month. The more you take in a given day, they tell you, the more likely you will see the end of your migraine and you’ll be cured – but it will probably take 3 months to see an effect. You’ll also be cured of high blood pressure, metabolic syndrome and MS if you happen to have that too. You have nothing else to go on. No evidence apart from a brochure, nice packaging, and the word of the cashier. Do you buy it? Unfortunately this is the sort of stuff that pops up time and again. It’s almost always the same formula approach.
At some point everyone has a line they draw in the sand where they think “c’mon, that’s BS and is probably a money-making scam”.
My only interest in all of this is to make people aware of the potential for wasting their time, throwing money away and being taken advantage of. The Migraine Program does potentially fall into this category and I freely admit that I took a massive risk on it – but only after seriously weighing up the evidence – and even then it was risky as hell given the bold claims made. For me the jury is still out on it (however, I’m leaning towards ineffective) but if someone asked me if they should use it, I would be very clear that, while it’s plausible and there is some reasonably good evidence behind it, and there is continual contact with a medical team, I would say think this through carefully and go into it knowing that you may be wasting your time, losing your money, and see no effect.
My next comment is not a personal attack at Julie and I would say this to anyone under the same circumstances no matter who it was (in the same way one politician would criticise another’s policy), but to promote an expensive product claiming to cure migraine, without any plausible evidence, all the while being treated by pharmaceutical medications proven to effectively treat migraine, to me is unethical, disingenous, and unfair to vulnerable people suffering from this miserable condition.
Scott 8)
Am I mistaken when I think that women with migraine have more of a tendency to have them only at certain points in their life. I know this is true for my mother and a bunch of other female migraine “sufferers”; they had them perhaps from age 20 till 30 or something, then it disappeared. Others have them till post menopause etc, only during pregnancy etc.
This doesnt hold true for men I would think.
So I would say there are at least 5 different options if someone claims pxp has cured them of mav/ms etc.
- Theyre lying, after your money
- Theyre not lying, but its really meds they are taking who are doing what they should
- Theyre not lying, but its a combination of meds and time (post menopause?) thats at play
- PxP actually works singlehandedly
- PxP can “suberboost” your meds
Well, I wouldnt go for 4 or 5, Id say 2 or 3 is more probable.
Leaving that, theres always a problem of whether something is a cause or just correlates. For example at one point (ignorant) people thought being gay caused aids. Why? Because only gay people got it (what was known at that time), that being gay was a “sin”, and God was naturally punishing them. So It was something like this
God hates Gay people
God is Almighty
God punishes those he hate
getting aids is a form of punishment
God has punished gay people with aids.
However, as we know, being gay has nothing to do with it…
Its not always as clearcut as this though, many times something may be thought of as a cause for a very long time, only to be shown that theres actually another cause for both what was thought of as a cause and the actual “effect”.
Thought to be cause - Effect
Given time:
Real Cause - thought to be cause AND effect
Now theres nothing saying that given even more time the “real cause” is also just a correlation. Makes you think doesnt it? :lol:
Hi Mikael,
You bring up a very good point here that just because two things seem to correlate does not imply cause and effect. But our brains are wired to think this way. We can so easily assume things that are not true; we see patterns where none exist, and when ill, can easily believe that something made us ill or made us well again based on anecdote. In short, unless you work on your own critical thinking skill set and have the tools to sift through the bunk and find the truth, you can end up believing all sorts of nonsense. I don’t know how many times I was convinced that something made my migraines worse only to realise I was wrong. But I was deperately looking for that cause. Without evidence, it’s anyone’s guess, or worse, we arrive at the wrong conclusion and become deluded.
Can I add to your list?
- The person is deluded.
- It’s a placebo effect.
One other thing that needs to be cleared up is the notion that PXP can cure multiple sclerosis (MS). This is absurd. A case has been cited where someone apparently took PXP and their MS stopped. I wonder if that person realises that there are various types of MS? There are at least four scenarios of disease progression. There is one subset of people with MS who periodically go into remission between attacks – and in these people the attacks may leave no permanent deficits. The remission periods can last years. Have a look at the bottom graph in this figure. The flat parts indicate symptom-free periods. This would easily explain the perceived PXP cure.
Scott 8)
I love science and logic junkies! 8)
Thanks everyone. I might try this. I am currently taking Migralief but I don’t think it is helping me. Thanks for all your input!
— Begin quote from “scott”
Hi Kim,
Let me put it to you this way: at what point would you think to yourself that a proposed treatment option was ridiculous or did not pass your own personal criteria for what would constitute a reasonable and plausible treatment option for MAV?
— End quote
Well, if you are expecting me to agree with you that “PXP is ridiculous and not a reasonable and plausible treatment option” for me at this time, sorry, but that’s not gonna happen. Right now its the right choice for me.
— Begin quote from “scott”
For example, let’s suppose you walk into a health food shop tomorrow and in the shop is a product that claims to absolutely cure migraine. The package is well-presented, there’s a beautiful, glossy brochure next to it with smiling, happy families on it, and the brochure makes lots of incredible claims about how it not only cures migraine but a whole host of ailments. Even better, it’s natural. The package has a clear front on it and there are 5 clear tubes with a red liquid in them. The lady behind the counter says “oh yes, I know a few people who no longer have migraines after having used product X. The liquid is produced using advanced biotechnologies allowing it to enter and heal your cells in a way that no other nutrient can.”
The cost of product X is hundreds of dollars per month. The more you take in a given day, they tell you, the more likely you will see the end of your migraine and you’ll be cured – but it will probably take 3 months to see an effect. You’ll also be cured of high blood pressure, metabolic syndrome and MS if you happen to have that too. You have nothing else to go on. No evidence apart from a brochure, nice packaging, and the word of the cashier. Do you buy it? Unfortunately this is the sort of stuff that pops up time and again. It’s almost always the same formula approach.
— End quote
Let me clarify - I didn’t buy PXP off the internet, nor did I buy it for its “pretty packaging” or handsome displays, and not even some fancy website. (*Actually, the packaging is pretty plain, and the websites I’ve seen for it leave a lot to be desired). You may remember me posting a few months back, about the little boy in my daughter’s class diagnosed with Attention Deficit. The day I spoke to his mother, was the day in my heart I decided to try PXP. He was off the Ritalin, taking nothing but PXP, and doing well. I’m sure you have a scientific explanation for this, and I’m sure it doesn’t involve PXP, but it doesn’t matter.
At least, not to me.
I understand your goal is to keep everyone on this board from being “taken advantage of” and “tossing away their money” for things that don’t scientifically make sense to you. I don’t necessarily agree with the way you have come down so hard on PXP in the past few days. Why not jump all over the people who try chiropractic, or mouthguards for their TMJ?? Or all of the other alternatives (and there are MANY discussed here).
— Begin quote from “scott”
My next comment is not a personal attack at Julie and I would say this to anyone under the same circumstances no matter who it was (in the same way one politician would criticise another’s policy), but to promote an expensive product claiming to cure migraine, without any plausible evidence, all the while being treated by pharmaceutical medications proven to effectively treat migraine, to me is unethical, disingenous, and unfair to vulnerable people suffering from this miserable condition.
— End quote
How can you “personally attack Julie” when she doesn’t even post here anymore? She hasn’t been around for months! No one here is promoting or selling a product. We are discussing results of an alternative treatment. We do that here all the time. People on this board have the right to know (and WANT) to know when something works for someone and not another.
For the record, before I forget, I don’t think I’ve ever read (I may be wrong) that PXP claims to CURE Migraine. I hate that word when used in the same sentence as migraine. There is no cure for migraine.
— Begin quote from “scott”
Can I add to your list?
- The person is deluded
- It’s a placebo effect
— End quote
Scott -I took that personally, when I first read it. But then I had to laugh. :mrgreen: Who would I complain to? You? LOL
First off, I’m not delusional, so no offense taken.
As far as the “Placebo effect” - well, I think I made my opinion on that very clear the other day.
I hate to think that because of this topic, and the way its been handled in the past couple days, that people are gonna feel intimidated to bring up alternative treatments. That would be such a loss. No one should feel like they might be ridiculed by posting alternative treatments (whether they work or not). Its just too important. Its what makes this board so what it is.
Anyway, I’m done.
Guys - just do me a favor - don’t go bursting my “Placebo Bubble” (if that in fact is what it is). It feels to good to feel good!!! 
Be well -
Kim
Hi Kim,
My “delusion” comment (deluded by the way means misconception, misunderstanding, mistake, error, misinterpretation, misconstruction – it does NOT mean stupid or gullible) was not directed at you as an insult and you should not have felt offended. Why would I want to insult you for heaven’s sake? It’s a word that describes what happens when we believe something that appears to be true but really isn’t. It’s human nature and for a number of reasons we can easily be led to believe things that just aren’t true (using fancy buzz words and packaging, anecdotal evidence, seeing patterns and correlation where none exists) – namely with alternative treatments that lack any credible evidence. I’m stunned at how we are not able to dicuss a treatment on the board here without offence being taken! I merely pointed out the red flags in the gut/brain treatment above to be sure dizzyinaz is aware of it all. Dizzyinaz is willing to try it anyway. Nothing wrong with that but want the possibility of it being a dud and a money-waster being clear - the same goes for the migraine program that I went with. And, of course, we had the very revealing report on PXP from Luke who is UNMEDICATED which is why it’s the focus of attention now. I welcome any discussion on a possible treatment and would really appreciate hearing from someone who thought it was bunk and offer a perspective I might have missed. If something is snake oil, I want to know that. Why would you not want to hear another point of view before investing time and spending a lot of money Kim? I don’t understand that.
You would probably not believe the things that are said at science conferences when someone throws out something new that lacks credibility or is weak. None of it is taken personally; rather, ideas and claims are subjected to scrutiny. It certainly doesn’t stop nor should it stop anyone from searching and/or presenting something new and searching for the truth.
I don’t think I’ve ever read (I may be wrong) that PXP claims to CURE Migraine. I hate that word when used in the same sentence as migraine. There is no cure for migraine.
Posted on 10 Dec: “And I mean cure in the true sense of the word. I’ve had a lot of personal experience with this product [PXP], so i don’t doubt it.”
Posted 11 Dec: “I want to emphasize: The company doctor said that PXP has an affinity for the nervous system and the cure rate for migraine is 70-75%.”
How can you “personally attack Julie” when she doesn’t even post here anymore?
I thought I made it clear that I was not and never have attacked Julie personally. I’m saying that it is just not on to be selling a product (yes, not on the board but elsewhere) she claims cured her migraine without mentioning that she is being treated with powerful migraine meds. That’s very unfair and dishonest to others suffering migraine and I will stand firmly by this. What concerns me is that she does not mention the other meds she’s on. There’s no transparency. I would be totally fine with all of it if she came clean on that but would continue to be very critical of PXP or ANY treatment that was snake oil.
Anyway Kim, I’m sorry you’re offended by this discussion. It was certainly not my intention.
Scott 8)
Hi Everyone…for what it’s worth to anyone…i spoke with Julie recently and she said that she’s completely off the Prestiq and Klonopin with no side affects. Julie is only taking PXP for the last few weeks and claims she is doing just fine and still 100% back too normal. I’m very happy for her!
Joe
Has she told dr hain about her recovery joseph? If so whats his take on it? I would assume the top dizzy doc in the country could explain why pxp works (?). If anyone is a patient of his and is interested in pxp, you could ask him about it and he should know; if not the top dizzy doc, then who?
If anyone does indeed ask him, please pm me what he has to say (given yours and/or his permission of course).
Good for her =)
Hi Joe,
she’s completely off the Prestiq and Klonopin with no side effects. Julie is only taking PXP for the last few weeks and claims she is doing just fine and still 100% back to normal.
That certainly is extraordinary given the difficult comedown from Topamax, long-term use of benzodiazapenes, and Pristiq (an SNRI notorious for extended discontinuation problems) and I hope her report to you is genuine. Mikael brings up a good point. I wonder if she told Hain about this? He would most certainly want to know afterall. And if so, I would imagine he’d be wanting to conduct a real clinical trial and then add PXP to his website of treatments (if effective) alongside Effexor, Topamax, Verapamil, Propranolol etc.
Scott 8)
Scott, I was wondering the same thing about getting off all the meds and only being on PXP in such a short time. That type of reduction is actually very dangerous but if it worked for Julie, who I do not know, then good on her.
Someone else said that they did not buy PXP on the internet, so how do you buy it. I can’t even find a website that actually answers that question if someone did want to try it.
Sally
— Begin quote from “Sally”
Scott, I was wondering the same thing about getting off all the meds and only being on PXP in such a short time. That type of reduction is actually very dangerous but if it worked for Julie, who I do not know, then good on her.
Someone else said that they did not buy PXP on the internet, so how do you buy it. I can’t even find a website that actually answers that question if someone did want to try it.
Sally
— End quote
As for the quitting, that depends on which meds. Pristiq should be safe to quit cold turkey, but it’s usually very (or extremely, if it’s like Effexor) unpleasant. Still safe. Now, Topamax would be another deal altogether, but she was already off that AFAIK.
Re: buying it, I think the options are to buy online, or to simply find a distributor IRL and buy it face to face. There’s no official shop or anything.
Klonopin usually takes months to years to quit from. Too fast withdrawal is dangerous and will cause seisures and can even cause death.
Search for “klonopin withdrawal” on youtube.
— Begin quote from “MikaelHS”
Klonopin usually takes months to years to quit from. Too fast withdrawal is dangerous and will cause seisures and can even cause death.
Search for “klonopin withdrawal” on youtube.
— End quote
Months to years is what the benzo demonizers say… 0.25 mg/week or something should be enough to be perfectly safe (and for most people, acceptable), and a normal dose is 1.5 mg/day, so months may be accurate, but years? Only in extreme cases.
I’m fully aware about cold turkey benzo withdrawal effects. As is Julie, I’m sure.
Well when Ive checked what specialists have to say, it is not unusual to experience anxiety from 6 months up till 2 years after youve stopped taken it entirely. It simply isnt possible for the human brain to readapt quickly.
This is a drug most people on the mdds forum takes, so I know my stuff. I also know that some there have found it impossible to stop taking it.
Many have trouble (to some degree) coming of klonopin at perhaps even 0.1mg… They use water titration method to reduce it till its next to nothing… And still they get sideeffects. Most come of it by switching to another benzo which they then come of. klonopin is extremely potent so it can be quite hard to taper of that by itself, let alone by yourself…
— Begin quote from ____
Benzodiazepines, Sleeping Pills & Tranquilizers
The need to taper gradually from Benzodiazepines (tranquilizers, such as Librium and Valium), Sleeping Pills, and Anti-Anxiety Medication is essential. For many people, the withdrawals from these medications can be crippling and interfere with all aspects of life. We have gone to great lengths to explain the mechanism of the medications to instill the importance of a gradual taper to ensure success in the withdrawal process.
Benzodiazepines and other tranquilizers, sleeping pills and anti-anxiety medication, work by depressing the part of the brain that regulates a person’s activity level. They do this by increasing the action of a substance called Gamma-Aminobutyric Acid (GABA), a group of receptors that produce chemicals involved in slowing down the transmission of nerve signals in the brain. A receptor is a part of a cell or its wall that responds in a certain way to a particular neurotransmitter. GABA receptors are actually a complex group of 20 types and benzodiazepines affect about 75% of them.
The GABA receptors have additional areas in them where they combine chemically with other medications and substances, such as alcohol and barbiturates. That may explain the cross addiction to alcohol in a large number of people who start on benzodiazepines, etc. The initial effects of benzodiazepines, etc. are the inhibition of nerve activity and a reduction in anxiety. However, they can lose their efficacy in a matter of weeks, and is a common occurrence for a large percentage of people, often leading to an increase in anxiety. The therapeutic benefit can then reverse and an opposite effect can occur with symptoms that are often misunderstood and can lead to an increase in dosage or the addition of another drug.
More connections between nerve cells in the body use GABA than all other types of neurotransmitters combined. Our body uses GABA to break down food and make energy-rich molecules in cells, but it is also required to calm the central nervous system, relax body muscles, regulate sex hormones, and promote sleep. Since about 50% of the millions of neurons in the brain respond to GABA, this means that GABA has a general quietening influence on the brain and therefore the body. However, too much GABA can cause increased anxiety, shortness of breath, tingling in the extremities and numbness around the mouth. Because the natural action of GABA is augmented by benzodiazepines, regular use can alter the natural balance of GABA and therefore may affect multiple areas of the body that rely on GABA to communicate.
Anyone struggling to withdraw from a benzodiazepine, tranquilizer, sleeping pill or anti-anxiety medication, is acutely aware that the drug has profound effects on the mind and body combined. Directly or indirectly, benzodiazepines can influence almost every aspect of brain function, which is why they are able to exert such widespread effects on the body. Benzodiazepines etc. can impair cognition function (the ability to perceive accurately and think with that information) especially memory, and can cause confusion, increased anxiety, insomnia, nightmares, fear, perceptual disturbances and a host of other physical symptoms. Even a small dose has the potential to cause severe withdrawal symptoms if abruptly stopped.
Because benzodiazepines etc. enhance GABA, the brain’s output of excitatory neurotransmitters – that apply energy to and bring into action other nerve cells – such as Norepinephrine (Noradrenaline), Serotonin and Dopamine, are reduced. Such excitatory neurotransmitters are critical for normal alertness, muscle tone and coordination, emotional responses, memory, endocrine gland secretions, heart rate and blood pressure control as well as other functions, all of which may be impaired by benzodiazepines. Other benzodiazepine receptors that are not linked to GABA are present in the kidneys, colon, blood cells and adrenal cortex (the outer part of the adrenal gland). These direct increases in neurotransmitter output and the indirect impacts they have on other body systems are responsible for the well-known adverse side effects with benzodiazepines etc.
The receptors react to prolonged use of benzodiazepines, etc., by increasing in number and/or reducing their sensitivity to GABA. Therefore, larger doses may be needed to produce the same result. The brain begins to reduce its own creation of GABA as the benzodiazepine etc. has been artificially producing higher levels of GABA. The brain is highly skilled at maintaining homeostasis (balance) and will not do what is not necessary. The problem occurs when a person attempts to stop the benzodiazepine etc., which has been assisting the GABA production. Withdrawal of the drug can result in insufficient GABA activity, producing symptoms worse than the reason the treatment was initially sought. The heart rate increases while sleep decreases, as all the states that require a state of alertness are constantly present. Normal, everyday activity is not possible when the brain and body are in the process of a flight or fright response.
It is therefore essential to withdraw from benzodiazepines etc. slowly to allow the GABA receptors time to regenerate, thus minimizing the withdrawal symptoms. If done in a gradual manner, the GABA receptors will slowly restore to their normal levels of excitation and inhibition.
by Dr. Reg Peart
— End quote
Schedule 5. Withdrawal from clonazepam (Klonopin) 1.5mg daily with
substitution of diazepam (Valium). (0.5mg clonazepam
is approximately equivalent to 10mg diazepam)
Morning
Midday/Afternoon
Evening/Night
Daily Diazepam
Equivalent
Starting dosage clonazepam 0.5mg clonazepam 0.5mg clonazepam 0.5mg
30mg
Stage 1
(1 week) clonazepam 0.5mg clonazepam 0.5mg clonazepam 0.25mg
diazepam 5mg
30mg
Stage 2
(1 week) clonazepam 0.5mg clonazepam 0.5mg Stop clonazepam
diazepam 10mg
30mg
Stage 3
(1 week) clonazepam 0.25mg
diazepam 5mg clonazepam 0.5mg diazepam 10mg
30mg
Stage 4
(1 week) clonazepam 0.25mg
diazepam 5mg clonazepam 0.25mg
diazepam 5mg diazepam 10mg
30mg
Stage 5
(1 week) Stop clonazepam
diazepam 10mg clonazepam 0.25mg
diazepam 5mg diazepam 10mg
30mg
Stage 6
(1-2 weeks) diazepam 10mg Stop clonazepam
diazepam 8mg diazepam 10mg
28mg
Stage 7
(1-2 weeks) diazepam 10mg diazepam 6mg diazepam 10mg
26mg
Stage 8
(1-2 weeks) diazepam 10mg diazepam 4mg diazepam 10mg
24mg
Stage 9
(1-2 weeks) diazepam 10mg diazepam 2mg diazepam 10mg
22mg
Stage 10
(1-2 weeks) diazepam 10mg Stop diazepam diazepam 10mg
20mg
Stage 11
(1-2 weeks) diazepam 8mg
diazepam 10mg
18mg
Stage 12
(1-2 weeks) diazepam 6mg
diazepam 10mg
16mg
Stage 13
(1-2 weeks) diazepam 4mg
diazepam 10mg
14mg
Stage 14
(1-2 weeks) diazepam 2mg
diazepam 10mg
12mg
Stage 15
(1-2 weeks) Stop diazepam
diazepam 10mg
10mg
Continue reducing remaining diazepam by 1 mg every 2 weeks (see Schedule 3 Stage 26)
Heres another chart:
Withdrawing from Clonazepam
Withdrawing from 3 mg of Clonazepam using 10 mg Diazepam tablets.
Follow or Adapt Table From Your Starting or Current dose
Morning Lunch Time Evening Before Bed Total Daily Dose
Clonazepam 1.5 mg Clonazepam 1.5 mg Clonazepam 3 mg
Stabalise for 2 - 4 weeks
Cross over can be done in 4 stages instead of 2 stages or even more slowly if any difficulties are encountered during this suggested cross over to diazepam section.
Clonazepam 1 mg + Diazepam 10 mg
Clonazepam 0.5 mg + Diazepam 20 mg Clonazepam 1.5 mg + Diazepam 30 mg
Stabalise for 2 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 30 mg
Diazepam 30 mg Diazepam 60 mg
Stabalise for 2 - 4 weeks
At this stage you should be stabalising on the diazepam and ready to start making some small reductions in dosage.
Diazepam 25 mg Diazepam 30 mg Diazepam 55 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 25 mg
Diazepam 25 mg Diazepam 50 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 20 mg Diazepam 25 mg Diazepam 45 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 20 mg Diazepam 20 mg Diazepam 40 mg
Withdrawing from 40 mg of diazepam to 20 mg can be carried out using 5 mg sized tablets
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 16.25 mg Diazepam 20 mg Diazepam 36.25 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 16.25 mg Diazepam 16.25 mg Diazepam 32.5 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 12.5 mg Diazepam 16.25 mg Diazepam 28.75 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 12.5 mg Diazepam 12.5 mg Diazepam 25 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 10 mg Diazepam 12.5 mg Diazepam 22.5 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 10 mg Diazepam 10 mg Diazepam 20 mg
Withdrawing from 20 mg of diazepam should be carried out using 2 mg sized tablets
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
9 mg 9 mg Diazepam 18 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 8 mg
Diazepam 8 mg Diazepam 16 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 7 mg Diazepam 7.5 mg Diazepam 14.5 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 6.5 mg Diazepam 6.5 mg Diazepam 13 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 5.5 mg Diazepam 6 mg Diazepam 11.5 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 5 mg Diazepam 5 mg Diazepam 10 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 4.5 mg Diazepam 4.5 mg Diazepam 9 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 4 mg Diazepam 4 mg Diazepam 8 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 3.5 mg Diazepam 3.5 mg Diazepam 7 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 3 mg Diazepam 3 mg Diazepam 6 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
See also NOTE below for additional information on withdrawing from 5 mg of diazepam
Diazepam 2.5 mg Diazepam 2.5 mg Diazepam 5 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 2 mg Diazepam 2.5 mg Diazepam 4.5 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 2 mg Diazepam 2 mg Diazepam 4 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 1.5 mg Diazepam 2 mg Diazepam 3.5 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 1.5 mg Diazepam 1.5 mg Diazepam 3 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 1 mg Diazepam 1.5 mg Diazepam 2.5 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 1 mg Diazepam 1 mg Diazepam 2 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 0.5 mg Diazepam 1 mg Diazepam 1.5 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 0.5 mg Diazepam 0.5 mg Diazepam 1 mg
Hold reduction for 3 - 4 weeks
Diazepam 0.5 mg Diazepam 0.5 mg
Drop Last 0.5 mg dose of diazepam and Never Take Another Benzodiazepine Again
N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
Gradual Diazepam Detox Complete
As you can see, it takes a very long time… The latter chart is from 3mg and would take up to 2 years. Convert that to 1.5 and it would be up to 1 year… Some (more common with general-anxiety disorder) take up to Some take 4mg or more = could be over 2 years. Since some sort of withdrawalsymptom generally is felt a long time after one has stopped taking the drug, especially if one has done so over a long period of time, I dont think its that unusual for it to take over a year for a person to feel somewhat “normal”.
Benzodiazepine Withdrawal - YouTube)
Read the comments as well.
This is simply a warning to anyone on this drug. Do NOT stop it abruptly.
ps. Since obviously its impossible to have a discussion about pxp without involving personal attacks such as me having no place here I suggest lets not.