MAV'ers triggered by computer use -- your advice needed!

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81

Thanks MP.

The dizziness stopped and this new screen is OK now but Iā€™ve realised what is really doing me in badly. Voltaren. The physio rubbed in tons of it yesterday morning and I was all dizzy and messed up for hours afterwards thinking it was the screen more than the V. Last night I was OK again. But this morning I woke with a god-awful headache which I didnā€™t at first attribute to the Voltaren. So I put more V on this morning at work and now Iā€™m wasted again. Some dizziness and feeling spaced out and disconnected again. Very hard to do any work right now ā€¦ no motivation.

Iā€™ll just stick to icing this thing and thatā€™s it. Chemical sensitivity on steroids here. :frowning:

82

Update on my ongoing computer mysteryā€¦
This message is mainly for Jamie and Scott, who know well the issue of computers being symptom triggers, but Iā€™m open to ideas from anyone.

At this point, I cannout use ANY computers (including tablets or smartphones) without triggering off symptoms. The symptoms are in the range of my general dizziness/disorientation but thereā€™s something distinct about the way I feel after using a computer ā€“ a generally ill sensation that is extremely uncomfortable. It got so bad that I had to quit my job. Odlly, the computer I used at work I managed to continue using for much longer than any others (ie my home omputer really bothered me, but the one at work was okay, until it wasnā€™t). Iā€™ve started taking lessons on how to use the computer as a blind user but itā€™s like learning nother language and I am dead set on trying everything possible before giving up on this ompletely. For now, Iā€™m using dictation apps on y iphone just to get by, but itā€™s not ideal to say the least.

Hereā€™s what Iā€™ve learned about this ailment along the way:

-** I do not believe it is a product of light sensitivity**, for a few reasons:

  1. I am not set off by lights (fluorescent or otherwise) in other settings., aside from strobe lights
  2. Iā€™m able to watch TV without getting these symptoms. I thought this might be because I sit much further back, so I tried hooking up my computer to the TV and after a few days of using it this way, started getting the symptoms, especially when trying to read
  3. Sunglasses, screen covers, and/or dimming the brightness do little to help

**Iā€™ve explored the subliminal flicker theory (conradbiologic.com/articles/ ā€¦ ckerI.html) **
I read extensively about this and it really sounded like it could be the problem. However, Iā€™ve now tried 2 different monitors that run at 120 hz (supposedly too fast for the brain to pick up the flick) and am still getting symptoms. I might last a few minutes longer on these monitors but the symptoms still come. One of the monitors is LED backlit which I keep at 100% brightness to avoid flicker. Iā€™m unsure as to whether LEDs are actually better or worse for flicker-sensitive people as there is mixed info on this. In any case, it was not successful for me.

Iā€™ve also tried (unsuccessfully): prescription prism computer glasses, taking regular breaks, using a matte screen

Iā€™ve noted with interst that I am able to look at certain screens without my symptoms being set off - for instance, the monitor at a storeā€™s checkout line or a Kindle. It makes me wonder if this really has more to do with the hardware producing the image than the monitor itself but I have no idea what hardware specifications could be affecting this other than the resolution from a graphics card.

I know this is a lot of info, but Iā€™m desperate for any thoughts and wanted to give a full picture of where Iā€™m at.

For those of you dealing with this trigger, can you tell me specifically what computer(s) and monitor(s) work for you? Iā€™m willing to try anything!

Thanks,
Adrienne

83

My ipad2 is the only computer I can use. I havenā€™t tried a kindle yet. I admire your persistence in trying to work out your triggers & even learning to use a pc for blind people! Still, if it means you can still commuicate with the ā€˜outside worldā€™ itā€™ll worth the effort, for sure. Wishing you well in your search.
Barb

84

LED-backlit monitors are DEFINITELY WORSE. They are, in many cases, essentially strobe lights. You cannot see this, but I have tested them with an optical oscilloscope to verify it. They use Pulse-Width Modulation to control brightness and their are flashing at speeds of 120-180Hz which can definitely be detected by migraine-sensitive people. Not all LED backlit monitors do this but enough do to be very wary of them. The older monitors that use CCFL backlights usually flash at much much higher rates that are undetectable by anyone.

That all being said, there is no guarantee that that is your problem. That is just one of the possible problems that MAVers have with computer monitors.

My personal favorite monitor is the Dell U2410 set to minimum brightness. It is an IPS LCD display, so it has super-clear text. It is too brightā€“I wish it went dimmer. But otherwise it is a great monitor.

85

Hey guys,
Just wonderingā€¦ have you tried using a computer screen sitting straight and not typin? Does it trigger it as well?

I have noticed computers/iphone trigger MAV for me as well but i have always been under the impression it might be because of the posture while using the computer/iphone. When i have tension in my neck/lower head, it definitely triggers MAV for me.

86

Surely the problem lies with the visual vertigo and the scrolling on a computer. If you just look at a computer screen with a tv program on it you shouldnā€™t get symptoms for example. Itā€™s the movement of the words as you type, or the repetition of scrolling that causing the problem. When i use an ipad i feel very sick from the scrolling, and after a while laptops do the same. I feel as though i am moving with whatever i am doing so if iā€™m typing, i feel like iā€™m moving with the letters and if iā€™m scrolling i feel the rocking vertigo moving in the same way.
Itā€™s the visual vertigo setting off symptoms. Try not to panic and scroll very slowly. Also keep up visual vertigo exercises inbetween exercises and eventually the brain will adapt. Thereā€™s lots of hope here! :smiley:

87

Iā€™ve dug this one up from last year, particularly for Scottā€¦

Screens seem to be the worst trigger for me. I work in an I.T dept and 95% of my work is done on a computer. I have attempted to work a couple of days but as soon as I start using a pc my heart starts to race, I begin to sweat and then feel sick and dizzy.

I have the migralens glasses which help with the glare and symptoms away from a pc but donā€™t prevent the horrible symptoms when using one.

Iā€™m presuming my issues are motion related due to visual vertigo and the symptoms above. Scott or anyone else that has experienced this, did it eventually clear up for you ? If do what did you do/what meds were you taking ?

Did you eventually get your new iPad Scott ?

Iā€™m really worried that ten years of hard work building my career are over. It really is concerning!

Thanks

Dean

88

Hi Dean,

I never did buy the new iPad but have stayed with iPad2. The iPhone 5 knocked me around too last year but then over the weekend I was working on a friendā€™s 5 to set it up and I felt no effect. I canā€™t figure it out sometimes.

But yes, things definitely improved. When I was at my worst in 2003, I couldnā€™t tolerate anything. Now Iā€™m working on a Dell widescreen and all is OK. Apple retina displays are out for me on the laptops. Instant dizziness.

Itā€™s a matter of controlling the symptoms and finding a screen you can tolerate. It can be done. :slight_smile:

S

89

My visual vertigo has prevented me from using a pc for more than a few minutes - very frustrating but fortunately no longer need to work-wise. Like Scott, have stuck with my ipad 2 and no side-effects. Iā€™ve tried the coloured glasses and the screen filters neither of which helped.

However, thanks to all Jamieā€™s in-depth information regarding computer screens and PWM (pulse width modulation) being one of the major causes of visual vertigo Iā€™ve been looking for screens without this feature.
Iā€™ve found that BenQ are releasing a monitor (BenQ GW2760HS) without this feature. It may already be available elsewhere. It is a 27" screen - one which is far too big & expensive for what I need but are supposedly following up with a 22" monitor in September. Iā€™ll be interested in the reviews, particularly from migraine and vertigo sufferers!
Barb

90

Barb, Scott,

Thanks very much for your replies. I guess I was hoping for a ā€œdonā€™t worry it soon passesā€ but I guess this illness just isnā€™t that nice.

Itā€™s such a worry with work, I actually feel sick to the stomach thinking about trying to start something new from scratch after working hard to get a career in I.T.

Are you able to watch TV ok ? I can watch my LCD 40" screen at home most of the day without any issues. Perhaps if there is a fast paced film with panning/ those annoying shaky cams but other than that no problems. However if I then use my ps3 on that same screen I feel sick very quickly, itā€™s so odd. It doesnā€™t make a whole lot of sense, itā€™s hard to know whether the pulse modulation screens will be the answer.

Can you tolerate VRT at all ? In particular the gaze stabilisation exercises ? I used to be able to do them fine before starting the med trials etc but now find that and screen use very difficult.

Thanks Again

Dean

91

If I play games on the iPad with movement going on like racing cars I get messed up pretty quick. Happens on the phone too. I think we do compensate for this stuff over time only if you have migraine under control.

Donā€™t catastrophise about this. Keep exploring different options until you find something that works. Thereā€™s always a way around this crap.

92

Barb,

It looks as though the 27" screen is available to buy now at around Ā£198 in the uk. This isnā€™t too bad for what seems to be a very good screen and 100% flicker free on all brightness levels. It passed detailed tests with flying coloursā€¦

check.co.uk/benq-gw2760hs.html?g ā€¦ tAodMSUAPA

The most relevant section appears to be hereā€¦

PWM Flicker Tests at Various Backlight Brightness Settings

We tested the screen to establish the methods used to control backlight dimming. Our in depth article talks in more details about a common method used for this which is called Pulse Width Modulation (PWM). This in itself gives cause for concern to some users who have experienced eye strain, headaches and the likes as a result of the flickering backlight caused by this technology. Previously we have used a camera based method as described in the article to capture results at brightness settings of 100, 50 and 0. We now have a more advanced photosensor + oscilloscope system which will allow us to measure backlight dimming control with more accuracy and ultimately more ease. These tests allow us to establish

  1. Whether PWM is being used to control the backlight
  2. The frequency at which this operates if used
  3. Whether a flicker may be introduced or potentially noticeable at certain settings.

The higher this frequency, the less likely you are to see artefacts and flicker. The duty cycle (the time for which the backlight is on) is also important and the shorter the duty cycle, the more potential there is that you may see flicker. As a backlight is dimmed, the duty cycle typically becomes shorter and so flicker may be more apparent at lower settings. Please remember that not every user would notice a flicker from the backlight but it is something to be wary of. It is also a hard thing to quantify as it is very subjective when talking about whether a user may or may not experience the side effects. We are able to at least measure the frequency of the backlight using this method and tell you whether the duty cycle is sufficiently short at certain settings that it may introduce a flicker to those sensitive to it.

100% 50%

Scale = 1 horizontal grid = 20ms

0%

One of the key features of the new GW2760HS that BenQ are promoting is its flicker free backlight. After speaking with BenQ they intend to launch flicker free technology across almost their entire range over the coming months, at no extra cost to the user. They seem to be the first manufacturer who have taken this step and it forms part of an overall ā€œEyeCareā€ initiative for their monitor range, covering flicker free backlights, improved reading preset modes and new cabling provision for optimum picture quality. Itā€™s great to see a manufacturer listening to the consumer and addressing something which seems to be a more common issue with the widespread usage of LED backlights. Look out for models on their website promoted as flicker free, and we are told that later on the boxes will start to feature a ā€œflicker freeā€ logo to help identify compatible models.

Our tests do indeed confirm that no PWM is being used here for backlight dimming. At all settings the backlight brightness remains constant and is not cycled on and off at all. A Direct Current (DC) method is being used instead of PWM which is welcome. If users are worried about flicker or particularly susceptible to it, then you do not need to worry here.

93

Dean
It really sounds promising - BenQ have obviously done a lot of homework as to what their customer needs are so if it works for me Iā€™ll be happy as ā€¦! Are you in the UK - would you go for the 27"? I wonder whether you can have a screen for, say, a monthā€™s trial run?

Barb

94

It does look hopeful if indeed it is the flicker which is causing the problem. Iā€™m going to hold fire until my next appt then maybe get one. I could always send it back if it wasnā€™t suitable I guess, perhaps give it a week trial.

I like the sound of the mode which makes it look as though your reading on paper.

95

Iā€™ve now purchased the BenQ BL2411 - flicker free monitor. The screen features a reading mode and senseye (which automatically adjusts settings based on the room conditions.

For all those who have problems with computer screens this may help people decide if this is a worthwhile investment and whether Pulse width modulation is in fact a trigger for migraine sufferers.

Iā€™ll post an update later in the week.

Dean

96

keep us updated Dean. My computer screen is a massive trigger

97

Hi Rob,

Well I tried it for the first time last night. I was on it for around 2 hours, mainly browsing and whilst it seemed a lot easier to look at I still ended up with a migraine for the rest of the evening which is still with me this morning. Very disappointing!

Itā€™s a a good screen, it has minimal glare, zero flicker even at low brightness but it just doesnā€™t seem to be the answer for me. I wish it wasnā€™t so large at 24" - its almost too big for the distance you sit away from it at a desk. I have trouble sitting too close to my tv too, it defo makes a difference.

Dean

98

I really donā€™t think Flicker is the issue for us. Itā€™s something to do with the hardware and how the image is displayed and/or the motion of looking up/down to read from small pixels on the screen. Plus looking into a bright light.

99

It isnā€™t just the computer screen for me its also my iPhone

100

Same here. Basically anything with a screen ā€“ iPhone, iPad, any other tablet or computersā€¦