For those of you who have ever thought about using homeopathy to “cure” MAV, have a read of this article which thoroughly debunks this pseudoscience nonsense. I was sucked in myself about 4 years ago and of course it did nothing except drain my bank account until I woke up. My GF at the time was studying it at college so I gave it a try (she now thinks it’s just woo medicine as well). Anyway, hopefully this will save someone else from wasting their money.
While I think in the case of MAV, homeopathy is not likely to help very much, as least in terms of truly helping the symptoms, I would not say that homeopathy as a whole is of no value. Anyone can make a case for anything, and I think it is just as important to do a lot of research on your own and be wary of companies/people who say they can “cure” anything for a cost. Ancient Asian medicine has shown promise and usefulness in other areas, but for MAV, I have only heard of minimal help with say acupuncture and so forth. Our syndrome is more complex than those finding relief using homeopathy for other problems.
Devil’s advocate time: Not stirring up anything … just curious.
How do you/we explain the people who claim they are helped by homeopathy?
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First, it seems homeopaths aren’t all bad - they do take their time with patients, which in itself can do a lot.
Second, not all homeopaths use the pure water stuff, some appear to use more legitimate methods like herbs. I’m not a big fan of herbs either, but at least they have active ingredients!
Third, we have, of course, the placebo effect and various forms of bias (not to mention that time passing can make things better, too).
That’s what I have off the top of my head. Can’t say I spend much time thinking about it - homeopathy seems to be very rare around here. It’s not a protected title or anything, so I can call myself a homeopath and start having patients tomorrow if I’d so wish, unlike MDs, chiropractors and some other related, certified titles which are illegal to use unless you’re certified.
How do you/we explain the people who claim they are helped by homeopathy?
Easy, people can believe almost anything if you give them enough emotional reasons to. Its like saying “well so many people thought hitler was right, so how did that happen if he wasnt on to something?”. Just because people think something, doesnt make it so.
If one would choose to acknowledge homeopathy, one would have to change the entire way one views both sience, medicine, and probably a lot more. And that is a sandcastle about to fall… Thats why most people dont try to be consistent, so they can maintain their inconsistent views which really serves as emotional support and nothing else (which may be why society worked back when things were less civilised).
People will believe what they want to - it goes both ways. I think one needs to keep an open mind about everything, however. If homopathy isn’t for you, it doesn’t mean it does not work, for whatever reason, for someone else. I do think in our cases (MAV), we need medications above all else.
How do you/we explain the people who claim they are helped by homeopathy?
Two words: placebo effect. Homeopaths spend a good hour or so really listening to patients and telling them they will be well. I’ve been through the process and have to say that years ago when I felt like I was at death’s door with this, I held onto every word the guy said.
Even in really well done clinical trials (double-blinded with excellent methodolgy) the placebo effect – particularly in migraine trials – is huge. It’s so big that it’s hard to tease out an effect from the actual treatment. Of course the placebo effect is present in all clinical trials dealing with any illness/treatment.
I would agree that having an open mind is a good thing (as long as one’s brain doesn’t fall out in the process ;)), but homeopathy is so ridiculous and flies in the face of the most basic scientific principles that it is nothing less than laughable IMO. I think your analysis is right on the money Mikael. Randi makes a very good point in that nonsense treatments like homeopathy came to be at a time when conventional medicine was hardcore, expensive, and usually killed people with some of the treatments used. At the time, homeopathy must have seemed like a breath of fresh air – it was cheap, didn’t kill anyone, and used the placebo effect very well.
Well … I just don’t think I can agree that all people using homeopathic ‘meds’ have been convinced they’re getting better & that explains why they feel better. That’s like saying MAV is all in your head. Both theories are somewhat insulting to the patient. Haven’t most of us heard that before from at least family/friends if not doctors/specialists?
I definitely agree that some of those homeopathics are ‘way out there’ … I read about a woman who was “cured” of her Meniere’s by ingesting some ‘elixir’ containing fire ants. She swore she was cured. I didn’t tell her I thought it was a load of whooey, but her ‘cure’ was really really hard for me to believe.
There are so many people struggling & miserable … and so many people without any morals who are ready to take advantage of those miserable people … I expect it’s really hard to 1) find the legitimate concoctions that are actually helpful, 2) get past the “SCAMs” (because so many are out there), and 3) trust anyone who hasn’t actually earned our trust. If my Dad came along and said that drinking this special mixture of elderberries & rabbit poop cured his arthritis, I’d believe him … and I’d drink the stuff, too, to see if it cured my arthritis.
Oh - it’s funny … your reply brought to mind the following: I went to a chiropractor last year who spent a lot of time with me, sympathizing & telling me he could CURE my migraines. He actually used the “C” word repeatedly & kept saying “I can help you.” I tearfully wrote the check to cover six-months worth of office visits - 3 visits per week. (Luckily insurance covered most of it & all I paid was co-pay.) After a couple weeks my primary doc found out that this chiro was ‘popping’ my neck 3 times a week - he practically begged me to stop going to the guy. Said if I had chiropractic problems, he would recommend some reliable chiropractors but that none of them could/would/should say they’d cure my migraines. This chiro had a great sales pitch, a kind face, & hit me when I was extremely vulnerable. ON THE OTHER HAND, there are people who say chiros have cured their Meniere’s problems/symptoms. Go figure. I can’t say it’s all in their heads.
Just my two cents … guess I have too much time on my hands today :mrgreen:
Last spring,I was suffering from cluster migraines from March to May of 2008. I tried a chiropractor for the first time. I went several times and each time the treatments did absolutely nothing for me. He then started pushing all these natural supplements. My headaches were worse than ever before. Each bottle was $30, $40, $50. He had me taking things I had never heard of before. During my treatments he put this one device on me and said “this is going to rattle your brain a bit.” I guess it was to realx the muscles, it vibrated so bad I was dizzy and this was before the MAV. About a few weeks after his treatments, the MAV set in. I often wonder if that chiropractor didn’t cause this with all his herbal remedies, supplements, and “brain rattling treatments”. I know he probably isn’t the cause but it sure is weird how I never had this before. My husband swears this guy is great, I have my doubts. My husband has Crohn’s disease and had developed precancerous cells in the colon. This chiropractor wanted my husband to stop all medication prescribed by the doctor and turn to natural supplements only. He promised my husband he could pretty much cure him. I convinced my husband otherwise. My husband is on his regular medications from the doctor and a year ago started Humira injections presribed by the doctor. The dysplasia is now gone. I shudder to think what would have happened if we would have listened to the chiropractor.
Yeah, Nance, some of these guys can be really … um … scary to say the least. I’m glad your husband’s doing better.
Obviously we can’t throw all chiropractors into the same bucket as that guy - or the guy I saw.
Like my primary doc says, we have to use due diligence & common sense. (The problem is, our ‘common sense’ sometimes gets worn down when we feel so lousy!)
dont chiros have to have a license in the states? I know we had a couple of years ago in sweden as the name “chiropractor” wasnt a licensed title, in other words just about anyone could practice it. Now you have to take the 5-year education in order to be one; I think chiros have a somewhat bad rep among doctors for that reason (at least here).
From the first listing I got when I searched “chiropractic college” from the New York Chiropractic College site:
“The Doctor of Chiropractic (D.C.) degree requires a minimum of ten 15-week trimesters (three years and four months, total) of full-time resident study, including a clinical internship.” That’s 4,620 academic hours. So I guess that’s pretty much equal to your five year-study time.
In my humble opinion, there are some doctors who think ALL other medical professionals in different specialities than they’re in are quacks. My primary care doc is a D.O. & I wouldn’t trade him for anything. My mom, on the other hand, thinks all D.O.s are on the same level as chiropractors - she doesn’t have any respect for either of the professions. I guess I just try really hard not to throw them all in the same bucket even if I had a bad experience with one chiro.
From the first listing I got when I searched “chiropractic college” from the New York Chiropractic College site:
“The Doctor of Chiropractic (D.C.) degree requires a minimum of ten 15-week trimesters (three years and four months, total) of full-time resident study, including a clinical internship.” That’s 4,620 academic hours. So I guess that’s pretty much equal to your five year-study time.
In my humble opinion, there are some doctors who think ALL other medical professionals in different specialities than they’re in are quacks. My primary care doc is a D.O. & I wouldn’t trade him for anything. My mom, on the other hand, thinks all D.O.s are on the same level as chiropractors - she doesn’t have any respect for either of the professions. I guess I just try really hard not to throw them all in the same bucket even if I had a bad experience with one chiro.
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Joy,
You actually touch on a good point, probably without realizing it. (I am going to divirge from the main topic for a moment. Devil’s advocate time again. ) A doctor is anyone with a doctrate degree of education. Not going into details that is a whole lot of education, and it includes engineers, physicians, college proffessors, mathematicians, historians etc, but “Doctor of Chiropractic” is not a doctrate program. I work with people who have doctractes, and have “Dr.” listed as part of their official title. Chiropractors are just that chiropractors they are not doctors. A lot of other homeopath professionals refer to themselves as doctors but don’t have the doctrate degree to really refer to themselves as such.
Well … I just don’t think I can agree that all people using homeopathic ‘meds’ have been convinced they’re getting better & that explains why they feel better. That’s like saying MAV is all in your head. Both theories are somewhat insulting to the patient.
I don’t think this a correct comparison and is a logical fallacy. Migraine is a real entity (obviously we all know that) and is recognised as a true medical illness. There is overwhelming scientific evidence to show that migraine is a real phenomenon and that approximately 50% of migraineurs experience dizziness. Homeopathy on the other hand, is not grounded in any science whatsoever, all conducted clinical trials are always negative, and in fact it makes ridiculous claims that are simply absurd. When someone tells you they are certain that a homeopathic cure made them better, the first problem is that it is just an anecdote anyway (which can never be trusted in view of there being no credible evidence … it’s a bit like someone telling you they saw a unicorn in the backyard), second it was probably the placebo effect, and finally they may have felt better regardless of the homeopathy anyway.
I went to a chiropractor last year who spent a lot of time with me, sympathizing & telling me he could CURE my migraines.
I went to a chiro for ages too who said the same thing a few years ago. As far as I’m concerned, chiro adjustments are ok for loosening up stiff joints and it worked well for my neck as I was not able to handle the rev I got from physio or massage in the neck area (I’d get super dizzy). A chiro adjustment was quick, loosened things up and never made me feel worse. Of course it never cured me either nor did I expect it to even though they wanted me to come 3x/week for months (as an aside, this idea of having to make chiro a lifetime commitment was never the intention when it first began. That was added later on to keep fleecing people). My chiro used to bang on about subluxations which is all complete nonsense. In fact, there are a subset of really good science-based chiros out there who actually call them “dumbluxations” because they know it’s garbage. The science-based guys know that adjustments are good for spinal manipulation in some cases and that’s where they draw the line.
One last thing I wanted to mention was this notion of something “natural” being better. This is used by many quacks to make you think it must be the better treatment. There is something more warm and fuzzy about saying “natural”. But don’t forget that tornadoes, tsunamis, cocaine and tobacco are also natural and, combined, have killed millions of people. The bottom line is that if you ingest any molecule whether it be from a herb or a pharmaceutical, it is a drug. Period. If it has some sort of biological action it’s simply a drug. Indeed, many active pharmaceutical drugs are derived from plants but you wouldn’t find a quack calling it natural. For example, Vincristine is derived from a plant called the “Madagascar periwinkle” and is used to treat leukemia; aspirin was discovered and originally extracted from salicylate-rich willow bark until scientists learned how to synthesise it.
brian, isnt it illegal to call yourself dr. without having the qualifications?
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Because of freedom of speech, you can call yourself anything you want. Calling yourself an M.D. would be one thing without penalties, but then practicing it would be another that would land you in jail. That’s where chiroproctors get away with calling themselves doctors, they don’t prescribe medicine, they don’t perform surgery, or most of the other things that M.D.'s do. They just crunch your back, maybe suggest some excercises, maybe suggest some diet changes or even quit taking meds in general, take your money and send you on your way with a back and neck that feel much better.
In the case of the people that I work with that have doctrates in engineering or business, they have earned the right to put doctor in their title. Instead of Mr. Smith, you call them Dr. Smith, and they will usually correct you when call them Mr. Smith. They worked very hard for that title and want the respect that comes with it.
RE Scott’s “…One last thing I wanted to mention was this notion of something “natural” being better…”
I agree completely with your point. The fact that something’s considered “all natural” doesn’t mean much to me one way or the other.
And “…The science-based guys know that adjustments are good for spinal manipulation in some cases and that’s where they draw the line…” Yeah, that’s basically what my primary doc said.
So putting this in simple terms: If people using homeopathic remedies believe they are being cured - if this is just in their heads - do you think they’ll eventually feel bad/sick again? Seems like that would be logical … after a while the ‘happy feelings/imagined cure’ would go away or sort of be overwhelmed by the FACTUAL physical abnormalities that still exist & caused them to feel bad to begin with. Basically, time will tell … is that what you think? If so, I agree. That makes sense. If it’s all in their head(s), the sick feelings will return eventually & they won’t find any relief from the homeopathic remedy.
On the other hand :mrgreen: if the cure is all in their heads & it lasts for years & years, I think we should all get together & have a group “think happy thoughts” time! We can meet in your part of the world, Scott … on a nice warm beach that includes lounge chairs & massages & umbrella drinks & lobster & shrimp appetizers. (Okay I’ve lost touch with reality.)
) A doctor is anyone with a doctrate degree of education. Not going into details that is a whole lot of education, and it includes engineers, physicians, college proffessors, mathematicians, historians etc, but “Doctor of Chiropractic” is not a doctrate program. I work with people who have doctractes, and have “Dr.” listed as part of their official title. Chiropractors are just that chiropractors they are not doctors. A lot of other homeopath professionals refer to themselves as doctors but don’t have the doctrate degree to really refer to themselves as such.