Joy,
I want to back up what you posted, but I can’t find the words right now. Brainfog day. :lol: I do believe in the power of the mind, but to use it to cure yourself of something takes a lot of mind power. I have read some amazing cases of how powerful the mind is when it comes to self treating the body of ailments, but these cases are rare. So yes, from what I have read the mind can be a powerful thing, wether it is a plecebo effect, or just plain strong will power.
Another excellent discussion on homeopathy between Prof. Michael Baum and Richard Dawkins for those interested:
Okay … here’s my last post on this topic & then I’ll shut up. (I can hear you guys saying “Promise?!?” :mrgreen: )
I believe Julie’s report that PXP has relieved her of her MAV symptoms. Whether or not it’s working in combination with something she’s already taking is totally irrelevant to me. I’m very glad she told us about it so that we have the opportunity to investigate it & decide for ourselves. Whether or not it’s been tested by Scientists/Researchers is also irrelevant to me … because I WANT A CURE. There’s a certain amount of desperation … enough that I’ll skip the fine-print if there’s any chance at all that something will help me “get my life back”. When I started Topamax I wanted it to help. I trusted the doctor & all the other people (blindly) who said it works. I took the stuff for about three months & was unsatisfied with the results. All the testing showed that it should have helped me. But it didn’t. I’m not going to tell Rich (I think I remember he takes it) that Topamax doesn’t work & is a waste of money … because for him it did work.
“Too expensive” is up to each individual to determine. Again, I appreciate the fact that we can have the information presented to us & make up our own minds. I also appreciate the fact that I can buy it from “one of our own” … a forum member who I could call up on the phone & feel comfortable having a conversation with.
A side note: I’d rather spend a couple hundred dollars on PXP than $2500 on the Migraine Program. That’s not meant to be a ‘zing’, Scott. (To spend that much on something & end up not being satisifed would be horrid!) In the “beginning” you must have felt in some way that the latter had promise before you invested in it. You sound like a guy with a fully-functioning brain who researches stuff thoroughly before investing (money OR time), so I assume you investigated this Migraine Program before giving up your hard-earned money. Then you told your ‘forum’ people about it. Now - at this point - it sounds like you’re not satisfied with the results. So you’ve told us that as well. Julie posted when she started the PXP stuff … probably said she was skeptical (I don’t remember exactly how that went). Now she’s posting that it’s worked for her - she’s shared her results in the same way that you have. It does feel like some of us need to ‘defend’ her because of all the negativity that’s been posted about the product she’s using. If I were to constantly condemn Topamax because it didn’t work for me, I could be cheating ‘newbies’ out of trying it & possibly finding relief.
Please forgive me if I’ve rambled here. I tried to condense it but just kept adding instead of subtracting.
Be well everybody and please don’t stop looking for a cure … & sharing your opinions/results.
Hi Joy,
Thanks for the post. No probs at all bringing up the Mig Program and my sinking 2.5 grand into it. You’re right, it makes me cringe sometimes when I think about the cash spent but it was plausible enough and had enough good evidence behind it to take the risk in mine and Roberto’s opinion (for him it has removed his migraines but not dizziness). I still don’t know for certain if it works. So far anecdotal evidence suggests that it is not effective for MAV but might be for some regular migraineurs. It could all be bunk. I have not been able to tolerate the supplements so was not able to see if it really would have worked for me with all of the hormones etc. I did learn, however, that 5HTP is effective for mood at a really low dose. A small bonus but an expensive one.
Whether or not it’s working in combination with something she’s already taking is totally irrelevant to me.
I don’t understand that logic Joy. Wouldn’t you want to know what it is that is working for you? If PXP is simply snake oil and it’s the fact that 50 mg of Pristiq and a benzodiazapene is the reason you are well, isn’t that important to know? The Migraine Program was expensive yes, but if you thought it was PXP responsible for you feeling well, when in fact it wasn’t, then you’d be spending hundreds/thousands of dollars over one to two years, perhaps indefinitely for no reason whatsoever. PXP would cost you more than just a couple of hundred dollars if you had convinced yourself it was working. Clearly, that would be crazy.
There’s a certain amount of desperation … enough that I’ll skip the fine-print
This is precisely what the makers of any snake oil know. And they exploit this to make money from desperate people who just want to feel well again - such as ourselves.
I’m not going to tell Rich that Topamax doesn’t work & is a waste of money … because for him it did work.
But the difference here and the main point of this entire discussion is that this particular medication (Topamax) has been thoroughly scrutinised and subjected to the scientific method: double-blinded, placebo controlled trials. The results have been replicated numerous times. We KNOW it works for those who do not have unfortunate side effects. It’s been proven. There is a mechanism that is plausible (reducing brain hypersensitivity and thus driving a wedge into the migraine feedback loop). PXP, on the other hand, has not a scrap of real evidence behind it. There is no sound plausibility. All we know at the moment is that one person thinks it cured their migraine, the other feels good on it and another said there was no effect. The first two also happen to be using proven migraine medications; the third is not.
It does feel like some of us need to ‘defend’ her because of all the negativity that’s been posted about the product she’s using.
But why can’t we simply keep the emotional stuff out of this and simply examine the product? Julie made some very bold claims about a product lacking any credible evidence. I know some people get offended with this sort of discussion but we have to discuss it otherwise people could potentially lose a lot of cash over an extended period of time by any snake oil (or homeopathy), not just PXP.
don’t stop looking for a cure … & sharing your opinions/results
Couldn’t agree more … and can I add that we always do our best to have an honest discussion without offense being taken.
Cheers … Scott 8)
Here’s a great blog entry by prominent neurologist Steven Novella who popularises science. He exposes yet another ridiculous snake oil “detox” concoction that even the Prince of Wales believes in:
— Begin quote from ____
“The con is an old one - virtually random ingredients are put into a pill, elixir, tincture, or salve and sold with incredible hype but no science. So-called snake oil marketers have a long tradition of knowing their marks and the market. Claims are designed to appeal to the broadest market, to have maximal allure, and to be just vague enough to evade any pesky regulations that may be in effect. Claims also tend to follow recent fads, using the buzz-words that are hot, and often try to wrap cutting-edge sciency terms in the cloak of ancient wisdom.”
— End quote
theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=494
Scott 
And another epic failure and tragic story in the news (right here in Sydney) because of homeopathic quackery:
news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-na … -asi9.html
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"In the last months of her life, baby Gloria Thomas suffered such terrible eczema her skin would weep and peel, sticking to her clothing when she was changed.
Despite her bleeding, crying and malnutrition, her mother and homeopath father failed to get conventional medical help before she died a painful death, a Sydney jury has been told … Instead, Thomas Sam and Manju Sam gave to Gloria various types of homeopathic drops.
… Although the GP wrote a referral letter to a specialist, the parents never saw him … The father was educated in homeopathy in India and in Australia undertook a masters degree in health administration, while his wife had a science degree and a postgraduate diploma in computers … Thomas Sam worked as a homeopath in Sydney and taught the subject at a Sydney college."
— End quote
Shocking stuff. 
Scott
EDIT: Dr Steve Novella gives a well-deserved scathing review of homeopathy in relation to this particular case titled,
“[size=130]Homeopathy Kills[/size]”. A great read:
— Begin quote from ____
Those who advocate for strict scientific standards in medicine are often asked, “what’s the harm” of someone pursuing unconventional medicine? If people want to engage in a little hope, even if it’s a false hope, it might make them feel better and it won’t cause any harm.
Often the questioner assumes that the unscientific remedies are themselves harmless. This is not always a reasonable assumption. Some unscientific treatments are directly harmful, or carry a non-trivial risk. But that is not the limit to the harm that can be caused by pursuing such remedies.
For me the biggest harm of unscientific medicine is that it fosters a distrust of science-based medicine and practitioners and faith in bizarre notions of health and illness and in treatments that do not work. Someone who feels that acupuncture helps their back pain may then rely upon it when they get cancer.
Homeopathic treatments (real ones, not products labelled homeopathic but containing real drugs) are certainly harmless. They have no side effects because they have not effects - they are just water and sugar pills. Most homeopathic dilutions are such that chances are not a single molecule of the “active” ingredient remains behind. Or, more accurately, the original assortment of molecules that can be found in all water are there, but that’s it. Homeopathy is literally nothing but pure magical thinking.
But homeopathy can still kill …
— End quote
Teaching homeopathy at a college = :?
I remember when I was REALLY involved in this as well as anything “new age” !!! ThankGod I also woke up after really having my mind messed up, I will never go back to that…sometimes I have a hard time even walking into a health food store…but anyway, when my kids were little, I took them to a very well known and respected Homeopath/MD here in my city. I remember when he was trying to diagnose, he would ask these questions like…does he like to be left alone and in a dark room? These kinds of questions were very frustrating for me, because I would say "UUUUMMMMM no, he wants to watch TV and have milkshakes, like most kids when they are sick!!! It was so frustrating, because we never fell into the bracket of questions that he asked…I sort of felt like we weren’t “normal”. :mrgreen:
Pam
Of course new age and health food aren’t bad things. However when you start to go overboard with the homeopathy in lieu of proven medical treatment, then the problems start.
“How do you/we explain the people who claim they are helped by homeopathy?”
One could also ask how do we explain the people who’ve had discussions with fairies at the bottom of the garden? The question implies that we agree a) that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden and b) that they speak our language and c) that they may have something useful to say.
Having said all that, for something like MAV I don’t think homeopathy can do any harm (except to your wallet). Neither can drinking water. But it’s cheaper.
Also, homeopathy consultations are great - they’re just like psychotherapy and cost about the same, so you’re no worse off financially. Given that MAV can make you anxious; talking it out, be it to a neurologist, a homeopath, a friend, or the wall is no bad thing. Although the friend and wall are free and the neurologist actually knows how brains work.
Victoria
Also, homeopathy consultations are great - they’re just like psychotherapy and cost about the same, so you’re no worse off financially.
I actually did see a homeopath about 5 years ago (my GF begged me to try it) before I woke up and smelled the woo coffee. While they listened very intently and commiserated with me (which made me feel warm and fuzzy), looking back I would have rather spent the hundred bucks on a proper professionally trained psychologist who would have not only listened to me but taught me some real and effective coping skills to take away instead of a bottle of shaken water. :?
Scott
You know, all this reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where George goes to see a “healer” to get his tonsils taken care of instead of surgery. Anyone know what I am talking about? It is funny as heck! :lol:
I can hardly belive what’s been happening but the author (Simon Singh) of a fantastic book I’m reading, “Trick or Treatment”, has been sued by the British Chiropractic Association for calling them out on some of the unsubstantiated quackery they have been promoting –- that chiropractic can treat children with colic, sleeping and feeding problems, frequent ear infections, asthma and prolonged crying, even though there is not a scrap of evidence.
In the UK the libel laws are absurd and puts the burden on the person who allegedly committed the libel to prove himself innocent; the plaintiff does nothing. And so it kills the ability for journalists to exercise free speech for fear of being sued and destroyed financially. The result has been a HUGE response by skeptics worldwide condemming the British Chiropractic Association.
This is the great part. The BCA have been back-peddling their heads off recently because of the outrage and a confidential letter sent out by the BCA to all chiros in Britain has been exposed showing just how disingenuous the chiropractors in the UK have been. This makes for some good reading for those interested:
guardian.co.uk/science/2009/ … -mca-singh
Sure makes you realise how much quackery there is out there. In defense of chiropractic there is some evidence that it is useful for lower back and neck pain issues only. For me it gave some temporary relief in my neck although sometimes I think it was because I had unknowingly (at the time) avoided migraine trigger foods and so the neck pain settled within 24 hours whether or not I had thrown away 50 bucks on a 30 second adjustment.
Scott 8)
Scott,
Great article on chiropractic. There were a number of related links which are also really interesting. This one, on homeopathy is particularly thought provoking.
guardian.co.uk/science/blog/ … ebo-effect
Victoria
This is hilarious. Imagine if homeopathy, astrology, flower remedies and crystals were used in the ER!
Another cracker from James Randi for “Homeopathy Awareness Week”
James Randi Speaks Homeopathy Week 2010 - YouTube)
Scott
Taking the “piss” out of homeopathy.
An interesting experiment:
Homeopathy should not be mistaken for naturopathic medicine. I don’t believe in homeopathy for anything, but I do believe in naturopathic medicine.
Good point Burd - I too have often heard/read people confusing the two with each other. Homeopathy is, well, water. That’s it. Naturopathy uses stuff in its ‘natural’ state (ie not isolated or synthesised) and therefore can have actual active ingredients.
— Begin quote from ____
Naturopathy uses stuff in its ‘natural’ state (ie not isolated or synthesised) and therefore can have actual active ingredients.
— End quote
Unfortunately when most of them are put to the test they don’t do a hell of a lot or nothing at all. Did you ever read Trick or Treatment Vic?