MAV'ers triggered by computer use -- your advice needed!

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Thought I might weigh in on this. I do not have migraines, but I am having a TON of trouble with my new computer, and I thought Iā€™d share my findings.

I have always been a Windows user. Iā€™m a programmer and was on Windows 7 with a laptop and external monitor attached. No problems; I could look at it all day with no trouble. I also have used an iPad and iPhone, both with Retina display, for years with no problem.

But I just switched my computer to a MacBook Pro. Whatā€™s REALLY strange is that I have it plugged it into the same LED monitor (which Iā€™ve always loved), same room, same lighting setup, no changes to anything. The refresh rate is the same, the brightness and contrast are the same (and Iā€™ve fiddled), the ambient lighting is the sameā€¦ absolutely everything.

And itā€™s making me ill. I keep thinking it will get better, but it doesnā€™t.

Iā€™ve checked and double-checked the monitor settings. I have strenuously avoided looking at the laptopā€™s own Retina screen to eliminate that variable. Iā€™ve moved the monitor back and forth; fiddled with every setting under the sun. I went to the optometrist and my prescription hasnā€™t changed. And what Iā€™ve come down to is, itā€™s the way the Mac antialiases type. I donā€™t think thereā€™s any getting around it.

How can I be so sure? I did a screen grab of this webpage on my Windows laptop and looked at in in Photoshop ON THE MAC. It was perfectly fine; I could read it without the slightest strain. Looking at the SAME PAGE in Chrome, using the Macā€™s own type antialiasing (both with the LCD font smoothing option on and off) was nauseating.

Looking at the image zoomed in, on a pixel-per-pixel level, shows that Windows cheats the fonts a little to give you strong, thin verticals that always occupy one pixel and are 100% dark, In contrast, the Macā€™s verticals are a bit thicker and often engage two pixels at varying levels of brightness. Itā€™s almost like it confuses the eye, which doesnā€™t know where to ā€œgrab onā€ to the next stroke.

I have tried every tweak in the bookā€¦ Flux (the color-temperature adjuster, which Iā€™ve always used), frequent breaks, eye drops, making sure my ergonomics are sound, blinking, eye exercises, and several Mac setting adjustments (including ā€œIncrease Contrastā€ and ā€œDark Modeā€ā€¦ even a tweak to Mac OSX Yosemite that restores the system font to Lucida Grande). So far, no luck with any of this.

So why have my iPad and iPhone never bothered me? My guess is itā€™s the Retina display, which gives each character twice the number of pixels, so their verticals are in the 3ā€“4 pixel range. Here, the ratio of stroke width to pixel size is much higher, so the algorithm used is much less important. And a screen capture from the iPhone is very close to a screen capture from the Retina display on the MacBook (though the MacBookā€™s text looks very slightly less bold).

So now what I canā€™t fathom is why the MacBookā€™s Retina display is giving me trouble, when itā€™s pretty much the same as the iPad screen. Iā€™ve ordered a new pair of glasses with a slightly more positive correction (reading glasses) to see if they help, but my guess is that they will not. Apparently there is no way to completely turn off the Macā€™s font smoothing, so Iā€™m not sure what to try next, other than go back to Windows (and spend another week moving files, backing up, installing applicationsā€¦ groan!). I havenā€™t given up yet, so if I come up with anything else Iā€™ll come back and post on it.

122

Peter,

Thanks so much for that response. I know this is an old topic, but hopefully some of you folks still lurk here from time to time. Iā€™ve had an increasingly worse time looking at computer monitors. I got work to buy me a flicker-free computer monitor and Iā€™m sad to say that for me it wasnā€™t the flicker either. Itā€™s worse at work than at home (maybe because there are fluorescent lights at work?), but I donā€™t use a Mac in either location. I canā€™t figure out what it is for me. Have you looked into this any more since this last post? Do you think that someone could be bothered by the opposite problem ā€“ Windowā€™s handling of fonts making someone dizzy but not Appleā€™s handling of fonts? Iā€™d be interested to hear your thoughts on that.

Thanks,
Jon

123

Hi Jon.

I do have a new theory with some actual evidence behind it. The months following my last post were a wild ride! What I arrived at is actually not the antialiasing at all (since the iPad has pretty much the identical screen to the computer, which I ended up selling). In my case, I think it was actually the graphics driver. Intel has become aware of a growing number of users of their graphics cards that are having this problem, and I myself bought a new Windows computer, with an Intel card, and had the same trouble as I had on the Mac. Something, maybe several things, have changed in their software beginning in late 2011, and it has many users suffering. Intel doesnā€™t know what it is ā€” but theyā€™re working on it. Itā€™s hard for them to tell what the problem might be because they donā€™t have anyone there who experiences it, but I think they have isolated a few potential issues. Iā€™m actually in contact with them as they continue to test.

In the meantime, I am back to normal. With my new Windows 10 computer, I downgraded the graphics driver to version 15.40.7.4279 and I gradually acclimated to it. I donā€™t know if you are using an Intel card, but if so, itā€™s worth looking into this as a stopgap solution (your mileage may vary, and depending on your card the first numbers in the driver version might differ, but I think any of them ending in 4279 would work). I think Windows updated my driver to the most current when it did its last update, and I havenā€™t noticed any strain. My glasses prescription has remained unchanged and my vision is fine and stress-free. I did do an extensive writeup of several other possibilities on Quora, which you might be interested in: https://www.quora.com/Why-does-using-a-MacBook-Pro-Retina-cause-eye-strain-and-dizziness/answer/Peter-Romero-5?srid=JzUq

And here is a link to the discussion on Intel where others are discussing the problem: https://communities.intel.com/message/378320#378320

I hope you find a solution!

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Hi Peter,

Thanks for the info! I will have to spend some time reading your Quora post, but just to respond to the graphics driver issue ā€“ I have an NVIDIA graphics card, so I donā€™t think thatā€™s going to be it for me. Iā€™m not sure what my work computer has, but Iā€™m having nearly the same amount of trouble at home as at work. I am thinking it might be the accommodative stress thing for me. Anyway, thanks for putting so much work into this!

  • Jon
125

Also, I just realized I donā€™t really ever have problems when watching videos. Sometimes with computer games due to the less predictable back and forth movement, but about 95% of my problem has to do with reading or other work-related stuff. Iā€™m wondering if itā€™s purely a changing vision problem for meā€¦

126

Hi everyone!

I found something thats really helped me with computers!

I never really had the vertigo unless i had a really bad/run down attack. I mainly had issues with working on computers or even looking at my iPhone - i used to get a really tight pain behind my eyes almost as soon as i tried to concentrate on a screen. I was fine watching movies/tv but computers were i nightmare. I bought a projector to see if that helped but as a graphic designer it was too blurred to work. i bought a retina screen (which helped a little - i think). This all began in 2012 when i had horrific labyrithitus (can never spell it correctly) then over the following months evolved and i got diagnosed with MAV. over the years i ve taken full the max doses of pizotifen, amiltryptilin, propananol, lamotrigine and they all worked at first then i think i became immune. I had to give up my job as a graphic designer and now Iā€™m freelancing. My next step was to have the steroid ejection in the base of my skull to reduce the optical nerve inflamation - but i decided against that for now.

But I recently discovered an eye pillow called IMAK - you basically put them in the freezer and get them out before you go to bed. simples! I now have 2 for when its really bad and when i need to get up for a wee etc i just grab the second one.

I honestly never thought it could be that simple. I think it reduces the inflamation of the optical centre. They re cheap and from amazon. (THIS IS NOT A SALES ADVERT OR ANYTHING LOL).

I still have the odd headache/eye pain but nowhere near as bad as before. I mentioned this to a friend of mine who also suffers from MAV and they agreed it really helped them. I think i ve found a miracle semi-cure lol!!!

I thought i d share this as i used to spend hours searching for an answer (which i never found and tried loads).

Hope it works for you too!

cheers tom

127

This is an ad. No one who knows anything about MAV could possibly believe that an eye pillow could help vertigo.

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lol iā€™m honestly not joking.

Saying that i never EVER had a migraine before my vestibular dysfunction/illness in 2012. From then onwards I nearly only got migraines from using computers/iphone screens (i also had a few caused by caffeine/chocolate/lack of sleep).

Before i got diagnosed with MAV - If i even looked a computer screen i d get pain behind my eyes like hot spoons slowly moving behind my eyes and i d feel sick. This was very traumatic especially as Iā€™m a graphic designer so computers are like a limb to me. But I then discovered lovely LOVELY meds which worked for a while and i was over the moon! As i mentioned above they stopped working (sometimes after 8 months, sometimes less). Maybe because my migraines we re more caused by visual overload causing pulsing optical pain behind my eyes. So Iā€™m guessing the eye ā€˜pillowsā€™ work by reducing the optical nerve inflammation? My partner bought them for me and i thought the same that theyā€™d be useless.

i honestly am not a sales man lol - Iā€™m a graphic designer this is my website tomkennedy.co.uk and if you want to contact me about the magic eye pillows OR need any graphics doing please let me know :wink:

Tom

ps - i used to search the web for hours looking for an answer which i found so frustrating and i always promised myself if i found anything that really helped i d share it. I m sure it wonā€™t work for all and maybe its more for people who ve had similar experiences as me with vestibular issues.

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Also Iā€™m not saying itā€™s some miracle cure. I just found it helps me ALOT. I have 2 now in the freezer and before I go to bed I put one on and if I wake up in the night (I always do) I swap the it for the other and go back to sleep and in the morning I feel better, less tight / painful eyes and can work on the computer more often and for longer sessions. Simples.

130

For those of you who are not doing well, and had all the significant tests to rule out the cause of dizziness, I have a suggestion and you could try this out and it will also help the ENT doc to figure out what is going on. I am posting this to reach out to help those who were left hanging without a diagnosis for the dizziness and oscillopsia. Driving made it worse. I was having all these symptoms that many of you were having for the last 4 years and none of the experts in USA or Canada were able to help me until recently when I started using the silicone ear plugs as a last resort. I was also diagnosed with vestibular neuritis and VRT only made my symptoms worse. I have had every test in an ENT book except a surgical exploration. I have also been on every drug that is in the drug book for dizziness and oscillopsia and none helped me. I just ended up with complications from all these drugs. Who will not be anxious after feeling dizzy for weeks and months or years? When doctors (some) canā€™t figure out what is going on with a patient they label it anxiety. So, be careful. My symptoms completely disappeared after I used the silicone plugs (looks like and feels like playdough, but small) to plug my right ear for 2 weeks continuously. Sound was causing my dizziness and oscillopsia. Even the running of the motor of a fridge, cars driving by, even the subtle noise that I hear while in a car was causing my symptoms. My own sound also produced the symptoms. You could try plugging your ear, one at a time for a week continuously with silicone plug (including at night as others may snore in the sleep or the AC/heater fan may come on). It should seal well and you should hear very minimum through that ear when plugged. See if this makes any difference. If you are not successful, try plugging the other ear as above. Make sure you are not leaving pieces of plugs in the ear. If it still doesnā€™t help, try plugging both ears or avoid every little sound for two weeks and see if it helps. You should avoid every little subtle sound, for e.g. air condition fan, the sound of the water falling out of your tap etc. If it works notify your ENT doc. There could be some kind of fistula in the ear. Could you please let me know if you had any success with the above technique? For more information please go to: http://vestibular.org/about-balance. Good luck !

131

Iā€™ve never tried this but may be worth a go. The issue is exacerbated when internal ear pressure builds back up (ironically because the fistula is healing) and it causes ā€˜explosiveā€™ leaks. I get them when lying down when head pressure increases. Feels like vertigo. Donā€™t think ear plugs could help with that but no harm trying. Fistulas need all the encouragement they can get to heal!!

UPDATE 2021: not 100% convinced I had a Fistula with hindsight ā€¦ but this was the ā€˜belief systemā€™ I had at the time ā€¦ be wary of going down the wrong rabbit hole ā€¦

132

Sounds very familiar. Here Is my story and how I diagnosed myself. I originally started with neck and shoulder pain. I then suffered vertigo, disequillibrium, & oscillopsia (images jump)for over 20 yrs intermittently and 24/7 last 4 years. I was 39yrs old when I had the first attack. It took me 24 yearā€™s to figure out that sounds created my symptoms. I have been through many experts in Canada and USA for a diagnosis and most of the experts couldnā€™t get to a diagnosis. Some of them even prescribed me antidepressants. They tried every antihistamines, neuroleptics and many other drugs to help me. All these just only ruined my liver and kidney. I had every diagnostic text in an ENT book other than exploratory surgery. Being a masterā€™s prepared nurse I refused to accept that diagnosis. I lost my nursing license as I couldnā€™t go back to work. I then started keeping a very descriptive diary, hour to hour and figured out that it was always certain activities that is producing my symptoms. As a last resort, after a lot of research I started using Silicone ear plugs fo a week (remember it is important to plug only one ear 24/7 at a time for a week so that you can hear and at the same time figure out the problem ear) and I realized that it is low frequency sounds that was giving me the symptoms. Any motorized sounds produced the symptoms, even the sound of a running water, meals (especially the food that makes the sound when you chew, exhaust fans, AC/heater, cars, TV, music etc. I was told I have a supersonic hearing and I was so loud. Hope all of you can give it a try with Silicone plugs and see if it makes any difference. This problem is called Tulio phenomenon. It is caused by either SSCD, perilymph fistula or from a thin bone beside the ear. If it is SSCD you can patch it. For other situations, we donā€™t have much options other than avoiding the sound entry into that ear. If we do surgery we lose 30 to 40 % of our hearing in that ear. We can have custom made ear silicone ear plugs which causes only 30 to 40 % of hearing loss. If you plan to use it, just only seal the entrance of that ear you plan to block. Please donā€™t push it into the ear drum. Make sure you air the ear when you are not exposed to the sound (I mean pindrop silence). Now, I only get the symptoms if I am exposed to sounds and I forgot to wear my custom made silicone ear plug. Now I watch TV, drive and is able to go back to my normal routine. Please remember, this is not a medical advice. These suggestions are only for people who had proper testing and treatments before trying this out and only if your treatment is not working. Could you all please let me know through my email (please write ā€œVERTIGOā€ in subject line so that it doesnā€™t end up in trash/spam)below if the Silicone plug worked for you as I would like to join a neurotology group to further the research on Vertigo/disequillibrium and ocillopsia. If you have any questions, you can email me at gracymathew.kalath@gmail.com. There are too many of you struggling with this illness on Facebook and I canā€™t keep up with the Facebook comments. So please email me if you have any questions. If you get my story more than once that doesnā€™t mean I am trying to sell Silicone plug or send you spam. I trying to help as many vertigo sufferers as I can as I canā€™t keep up with the names. Good luck!

Thank you
Sincerely,
Gracy

133

Hi, i just found this site because I have been experiencing vertigo. And I wanted to see if anyone else was having the issue after they look at their new iMac. I feel dizzy, disoriented and just completely lost within minutes seems like now of getting on my iMac. I didnā€™t know what it was. I have to use the computer for work. Have you been able to find any solutions?

134

Hi there! Have you tried adjusting the brightness in your iMac? Or are you even wearing glasses?

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Hi David and welcome. Lots of people subsequently diagnosed with Vestibular conditions initially pick up on that because of screen intolerance. I suggest you familiarise yourself with all the information contained in the Welcome/Wiki sections and then use the Search facility entering ā€˜Computer Screensā€™ as a keyword.

If you find your meet the specification for VM/MAV discuss this with your medical provider. As a starting point you could try the Migraine Diet and also have a look at some special glasses for computer use. Again plenty of threads on here to follow. Some people find that sufficient. Others go on to take preventative medication. Just depends. Good Luck.

136

Hey!

Computer screens are a huge trigger for me and since I use one all day, I need some help.

I have tried glasses (even though my vision is perfectly fine) with blue light blocking, but they donā€™t help. I take magnesium and CoQ10 also.

Has anyone tried FL-41 glasses for computer use? And did they help?

My career depends on being able to sit at a computer for 8 hours per day, so I would greatly appreciate any help.

One last thing, I use a 28" 4k monitor and that causes the issues. Using a 13" macbook doesnā€™t appear to cause me problems at all.

137

Hi MB22

As we already have very many threads relating to this same topic Iā€™ve moved yours over to avoid yet more duplication. As Iā€™m sure you will appreciate that very fact is a strong indication that you are far from alone dealing with these issues. In fact IMO itā€™s been in epidemic proportions for a good many years computer screen intolerance. Personally I fear evolution is far from keeping up with technological developments. And like you Iā€™m another victim myself.

Others threads certainly worth a read (much of my own experience included here)Computer and tv screen intolerance

And amongst others
Computers a trigger?

And those are all before one thinks further about the underlying reasons and searching them individually such as FL41 lens. All good keywords worth searching that will help you with knowledge gain but most probably wonā€™t do your current symptoms much good.

When it comes to FL41 lens you should be able to get them made up in most countries. Personally I have two pairs - indoors and outside, been sitting in a cupboard for years. No use to me whatsoever but many many more will tell you the exact opposite. They find them lifesavers, quite literally. We are all so different.
Migraine lenses

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138

Hello,

I wanted to revive this threadā€¦ Iā€™m currently using a 27inch monitor and I believe it is too big for me. Can anyone recommended a good monitor size and brand to use for MAVers?

This is what I currently have but plan to give to a friend.
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/dell-s2721dgf-27-gaming-ips-qhd-freesync-and-g-sync-compatible-monitor-with-hdr-displayport-hdmi-accent-grey/6421624.p?skuId=6421624

Thank you

139

Iā€™ve not followed your link. I did just pick up on the word ā€˜gamingā€™.

Iā€™ve often regretted not being on here from the very beginning of my MAV so that I could have recorded my (extremely long and protracted) journey in its entirety but the very good reason for that was in fact first screen and later light intolerance as Iā€™ve documented copiously elsewhere on here since. I amI not suggesting those symptoms caused my condition but I have always felt that they exacerbated it considerably. To earn a living Iā€™ve spend far too many hours at a computer screen. In the end I couldnā€™t tolerate any screens at all for long periods, 8-9 months absence was one I recall particularly well. Iā€™ve always found the bigger the screen the less well I could tolerate it. Even now I watch television in a 24ā€ screen almost exclusively despite having larger ones in the house. I need to be virtually asymptomatic before I could watch a tennis match (one passion of mine) or even most football matches on a thing bigger. Of course if you are a gamer the number of hours spent gaming could have as big/bigger influence of your condition than the screen size. Perhaps as part of your treatment plan under lifestyle adjustments this is something you need to consider. Taking prescription medication and loading yourself with supplements may well not help as much as reducing triggers.

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I agree with you that the bigger screen are more bothersome. When i use my laptop it doesnā€™t bother me as much because the screen is only 15" and I face it a good ways away from me. My personal computer is 27" and it bothers me the most. I am working on getting a 24" to see if it changes anything. I use 2, 24" monitors for work and I was not able to tolerate them because they were side by side. I am getting discouragedā€¦ i wonder if and when I will be able to use a computer again to make a living for my family.